Attention ZB players!!!!!!

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

Hey there fellow ZB lovers. I'm listening to the secret and searchin' for the sound I have in my head. i am unhappy with the current sound I am getting out of my setup, which is very basic. I play a '71 ZB D-11/10 8x6 into a Peavey Delta Blues amp (16ohm Blue Marvel speaker), super simple stuff. The problem I am having is that when I get the amp cranked up, i get a very harsh sound that I am unhappy with, so i decided to go here for help. I am also getting really flabby bottom end with not much definition. When I get to the upper part of the neck, brittleness dominates along with harshness. I have done everything I know how to do playing wise and setup wise to get a different result, to no avail. I am posting this to see what the rest of you guys are using to get that sweet, silky sound out of your ZBs. I will note that I am a tube lover for the warmth, but I also love clarity and definition, especially at the bottom end. If you could just say a few words about what you use and the results achieved from that setup, I think it would help me out a bunch. I really want warmth and clarity overall, transparency is also a goal, especially at the upper part of the neck. Anybody play thru Twin reverbs or Super reverbs? Nashville 400's (Iknow these are solid state). The speakers you are using would also help out. Thanks a bunch in advance. I love this forum.

David Doggett · Posted 22 Mar 2003 6:38 am

Chris, you need more power for steel than regular guitar. It's not a volume thing, it's all about clean head room for sustain with the volume pedal and clean chords. Steelers will typically attack their notes with the volume pedal only about 1/4 open, then pump the pedal for sustain. This leads to my rule of thumb that you need about four times more power in a steel amp than a regular guitar would need. Hence Peavey's popular steel amps are 200 to 300 clean watts.

Up to moderate volume levels you can get by with a Twin Reverb, and a lot of steelers love them for that tube sound. I once had a Super Reverb and it didn't cut it - same problems you are getting with your Delta Blues amp (which was designed to play dirty).

For speakers, two twelves will do, but most steelers have traditionally preferred a 15" speaker. They typically have less high end response, which helps minimize too shrill highs up the neck, and better bottom end response.

Just my own humble opinions. See my post in electronics about the Line 6 Vetta.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Chris; I play through a Fender Twin; but heavily modified.
I have a 15" speaker in it...I swap out speakers from time to time...JBL K-130;JBL D-130; and Black widow...and the Black Widow is in it right now and is really good.
I've gone through just about every tube amp made at one time or another...and solid state amps too for that matter....and I do believe I know what you want to hear...and you really won't get it with the amp you have now.
You need a 4 6L6 tube amp> for the clean head room as described.
Also my Twin just came to life even more when I just recently put the Phillips tubes in there....Wow...talkin' about beautiful highs and clean tight lows>..yee haaa.
Good luck and stay with it.
Ricky

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

There'll be a few guys who'll disagree with this,but most will tell you and I would also say look around for a nice used Peavey steel amp.You'll be glad you did.Anything in the 400 series or the new 1000 will do nicely - or you could spend more for a Webb,Evans or one of Jerry Walkers rigs. Play guitar thru a guitar amp and play steel thru a steel amp. ZBs and pedal steels in general have a big fat,complex hi-fi signal and you need a big fat,powerful,clean hi-fi amp.Another thing you need for steel is a lot of comprehensive EQ including parametric midrange control which you're not gonna find on many guitar amps. As far as the tubes = warmth and solid state = no warmth issue - get over it - it ain't so in this case.Speakerwise for steel,10s generally suck unless maybe you had a bunch of 'em in a massive sealed cabinet like certain bass rigs have.In an open back amp though,10s suck,12s are ok,15s are better.

[This message was edited by Michael Johnstone on 22 March 2003 at 09:46 AM.]

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

Thanks for the replys. Has anyone out there ever played their ZB thru a Fender Vibrosonic with a 15" JBL D-130? Supposedly these were created with a separate steel channel and a sweetener knob that would accomodate the higher headroom needed for steel. My research shows they were the same amp,basically, as the twins, but only had one fifteen instead of two tens, which would be nice with a 100 watts behind it. Right now i am between using something like the vibrosonic, and getting a nashville 400. I am unsure about the whole mod thing and if there needs to be one, but they are popular, and the price is surely nice for a good one. I also talked to Larry
Chung, who also plays a ZB, and he says that he has found that his sounds best thru a Fender tube amp, which he plays thru at gigs, so any more ideas.? Maybe a tube pre amp a sonic maximizer, into a nashville 400? Thanks for the info

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I concur with everyone here, Chris. The Delta Blues is designed to sound dirty and distorted. That's what blues players want. That ZB you have is also noted for it's highs (listen to them old Buck Owens records with Tom Brumley...that's what a ZB was made to sound like). To get a nice full sound, you're going to need good power, and a large speaker. For an easy solution, get a good used 400, and then add the LeMay mod kit if it doesn't already have one...you won't be sorry!

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Chris, I am taking my D-10 ZB out tonight so I can get off on its incredible tone. Everyone here is correct. You've got the wrong amp. The ZB custom is a high end twangy guitar. It will sound better though one 15 than 2 12's. Also Donny is correct. If your going to stick with Peavey get a Nashville 400 and put a Lemay mod on it. Ultimate is Ricky's Twin rig above or a Webb 614-E with a 15 JBL in it, which is what I play. You really have to match a guitar to a particular amp to get the most out of it. Especially a ZB. I LOVE mine. Its a 1971 olive green D-10 with natural tops. Its got killer tone through the Webb, but I'm also looking into a customized Twin just for this particular guitar. Believe me, its not your guitar.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 22 March 2003 at 02:22 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Vibrosonics are nice but stock they only have around 85 watts RMS. They also have zero EQ compared to a steel amp - they just sound like what they sound like - which is a Twin w/a 15. If that's ok for you,go for it. I played thru a brand new Fender "The Twin" w/a BW 15" on a gig recently in Europe and it was what I like to call "extremely adequate" and even then I had to use a small 10 band MXR graphic EQ to scoop out some mids. But normally I need at least 2oo watts for even the average beer joint gig because I like the headroom.It's kinda like having a big motor in your car - when you need the power,it's there. In any case,I would suggest you quit obsessing over tubes,for steel anyway.The creamy distortion/compression that tubes impart which sounds so good for Carlos Santana and Ry Cooder amounts to a harmonic fog over the sound of a pedal steel.Plus,they're fragile,noisy,most new Asian ones suck and a matched set of NOS tubes can set you back a couple hundred bucks - I know cause I just bought a set of GE 6550s for my Blues DeVille.In the 70s,I played thru a Twin w/EV 12s 6 nights a week for years w/a Bud,a ZB and an MSA - besides being a heavy damn thing,I struggled w/maintenance issues,
distortion and midrange tone the whole time but my life sure got easier and my sound improved 100% when I got a Session 400. Just one man's story. -MJ-

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

What to do, what to do. I am in general fond of the old sound, it seems more real and breathing than the new, and i impart that to old technology. I may be wrong. Anyone know what amp setup Tom Brumley used when he did the Buck Owens stuff? I love that sound. I also love the sound that Garcia got on Teach Your Children, I know i can hear groans now, but i think he had a sweet sound going. I guess in both those cases though, they were mostly studio stuff, not requiring lots of power. Keep the opinions rolling, i am eager to hear more!!!

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Back in the Brumley, Owens days, ('60's), Tom was using a "black faced" Fender Twin Reverb, with 2-12" JBL's. I never owned a ZB steel, however; I must say, the best sounding amp I've ever owned, was an '80 Fender Twin Reverb with 2-12" JBL K-120's. If it wasn't for the weight, I'd probably be using two Twins to this day! "John" http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

It sounds to me like Garcia went DI(direct)on the tune you mention and knowing his bent for high fidelity low impedance gear tends to back that up.He did use 4 twins one time when I saw him live in 68(for guitar).

Dave Van Allen · From: Souderton, PA , US , Earth

I would beg to differ with the characterization of a ZB as "a high end twangy guitar."

A player can enhance any range of tonality they wish; the difference between Brumley's Buckaroos era tone and his sound with Rick Nelson just a short time later is an interesting evolutionary progression.

what I have loved from day 1 about a ZB is the FULL RICH tone they are capable of- for instance Brumley's too-short solo on "Garden Party". BIG ROUND notes- each 'bout the size of a duckpin ball. A sound my ZB has in spades ( Greg Jones expressed it as "that guitar has some cojones")and lives up to 30 years of idealized memory of my first ZB.

Any powerful amp with 2 x 12" or a 15" will probably get you much closer to a sound you like; me, I particularly enjoy Fender tube amplification

To me it is the sound I hear in my head when the word's ZB Custom are invoked... a ZB thru a Twin Reverb, with the factory 2x12" or a retrofitted 15"- or a Dual Showman Reverb thru 2 x 15" cabs(Rusty Young's early POCO trig I believe-anybody know for sure?)

A Twin Reverb modded with a 15 is essentially a Vibrosonic.

just my $.02

------------------

"I AM Z-BOY!"

Zumsteel U12 "Loafer" 8&6 :: ZB Custom D-10 Smile

:: Fender Tube Amplification
www.voicenet.com/~vanallen/ :: vanallen@voicenet.com :: www.lasttrainhome.com

Larry Chung · From: San Francisco, CA, USA

Hey Chris, and hey Dave, and everyone else in ZB-land.

I'm gonna say that ZBs have alot of different sounds going for them. My S-11 goes from warm and buttery to clear with edge to Fender-razory with the flick of a switch. My D-10 goes from light margerine to heavy movie-style butter - some of the creamiest goodness I've heard. And it's me playing!!!

Tube amps are not for everybody, but for single coil pickups, they sure sound good to my ears. Oddly, my ZBs sound "warmer" when the treble on my amps get turned up! More overtones, more richness. ZB! ZB! ZB!

Seriously, tone considerations aside, both Fender Twins and Peavey Sessions/Nashvilles I've seen all weighed a ton. Did anyone mention Webb and Evans amps?

On the plus minus sides - tube quality and type can make an incredible difference for better and worse, and maintenance can be expensive over time. Solid state definitely sounds more consistent and capable of being "shaped", but sometimes this isn't so good either.

For the single coils on a ZB, I really like tubes, and Fender set the standard.

PS - I just remembered, too, that Pete Grant plays his ZB (Jerry Garcia's old guitar) through a Webb amp and it sounds great!!! Maybe that's just Pete... definitely.

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

Hey Larry, hey everybody. This forum is one of my favorite parts of each day, I love it. Right now I am torn. I really like the old style sound without all the effect and process involved, and i have narrowed my search to three amps: a stereo steel (seems to make sense with the weight issue and modularness and overall functions it has available), a Vibrosonic with a 15" jbl d-130 (I heard one of these amps at a vintage guitar show and I jerked my head to see what it was, albeit a guitar played thru it though, not a steel), and a Le May mod Peavey 400 (seems to be the amp of choice for a frugal, yet fickle taste in steel amplification). I just wish I had all three in a room together to go head to head with. I am still interested in your opinions and what you play your ZB thru, so if you play one or have anything to add to this post, please do so, I am all ears. Thank you to all those who have already given me advice, I couldn't have found it anywhere else. I think I'll go practice now, I know I need it.

Larry Chung · From: San Francisco, CA, USA

Hey Chris and ZBers:

I was reading your original post up top and wanted to make sure to mention something else about your guitar that you might want to check out. Or not!

The ZB guitar, unlike most other all-pull guitars, has a pull system that's really unique with it's own sound and its own set of (you guessed it) unique problems. Working on them is definitely tricky, but well worth it, and, when you get your guitar set up optimally, it will play and sound as good as anything else on the market (new or used). That's from the first book of Greg Jones, chapter 2, verse 8.

Anyway, you may notice that, underneath the guitar, the pullrods can be at some seriously odd angles to each other as they stretch from the cross-straps to the changer fingers. Unlike most all-pull guitars, this is not a bad thing. However, as you may have guessed, there's alot of potential for binding rods, nuts, connectors, etc., especially at the changer end where things get cramped and in and around the string trees. I took the time to carefully figure out which rod/finger/angle configurations to use to get the least amount of possible contact between rods and components (this is what you want, right?) while still allowing for smooth and effective pedal/mechanical operation.

In doing so, I also noticed that the string trees on a ZB can be set up above or below the cross straps, which is a revelation (duh) to me as this can really keep the angles and binding to a minimum.

After I finished up, I immediately noticed better response from the guitar (yes, the pickup responded differently) and more vibrations in the body of the guitar and in my feet on the pedals. I suspect that alot of the binding parts were eating up some of the tone. Just ask any b@njo player what loose resonator nuts sound like...

This isn't meant to be science by any stretch, but it may be something to check out before you go nuts with amplification. BTW - I laughed out loud when I flipped through the Winnie Winston/Bill Keith book recently and read something like "you'll always be a little bit dissatisfied with your amp".

Did these repairs change the fundamental sound of the guitar? Not too much, but enough that I noticed and IT SOUNDS EVEN BETTER THAN BEFORE!
It's still a good idea to get a good amp, but make sure the guitar is good to go, too.

Last thing - I always try to play at least 4 times as much as I repair/tinker!!! That way, I get better at playing, not just "improving" my shop skills. Did I mention that Tone is in the Hands? Heh heh.

Don't forget to have fun with it, too.

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Larry Chung
ZB D-10 8+4; ZB Custom S-11 4+4; ZB Student Model 3+1 Yeeeeahhh, Bay-Bee.

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

Hey Larry, I'll check it out. I Have spent a lot of time tinkering lately, which tends to eat up time, but this will help anyway. I have done some tests without the bar and just playing at different volumes and pedal settings, and found out that the tone goes from sweet and silky, to loud and harsh without the sweetness. If I am just hanging out with an acoustic guitar and bass, with light brushes on the kit, then i am great, but as soon as the guitarist goes electric and the drummer gets his regular sticks out, I loose a lot of what I am doing. I think the comment about a guitarist never being satisfied with his amp is for the most part true, but we gotta keep reaching for that gold ring so to speak. Thanks for the input, I'll definitely look underneath at the angles and stuff to see if there is any room for improvement. Thanks man!

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

I also have to object to the categorization of ZB guitars as 'twangy'. ZBs have a pretty big tone palette (with the multi-tap pickup) but they are major league PHAT sounding with the full pickup settings. I talked to Brumley a few years ago and he hated the twangy sound he got on the Buck records, most of that was post amp Bakersfield engineer eq. To hear how full a ZB can sound, get the Carnagie Hall Buck CD.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Okay guys I guess I'm going to have to redefine what I meant as twang. I love my ZB. The first thing another steeler said when he heard it through the Webb is "it certainly has body!"). I find the ZB to have great string separation and EDGE. Its got alot more EDGE than the Sho-Bud. I didn't mean to imply that it was a thin sounding guitar because it absolutely is not. I tend to like the thinner retro sound on some of the older records. The ZB has great tone and allows me to get the vintage sound I'm looking for. I guess twang was the wrong word. Its not thin.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 27 March 2003 at 09:23 AM.]

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