AC powered volume pedal(?) vs. non powered

Bill Hisle · From: Shawnee, Kansas, USA

Is there an advantage to using a powered volume pedal (such as an L120) rather than a non-powered one. (I'm currently using an Ernie Ball volume pedal which seems to work OK, and I guess I wasn't aware until recently that they came powered.)

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Maybe this will help,

Any lessening of the signal (volume pedal or control), coming right out of a PU on any electrified instrument decreases drastically what audio engineers call "signal to noise" ratio.

For the layman, this means that as you decrease with your pedal (or control), the level, ANY noise around it could be evident in the speaker. ONLY when the volume pedal is at max is this NOT the case (assumes the pot is at full throw). Which is rarely where it is.

Now, there is another thing that most audio engineers rarely agree with; but it is sooooo widely felt and believed, that efforts have been made to allay this fear. And what is that?

It is simply that a volume pedal changes the tone of a steel by its very presence in the circuit. Most engineers (I included) scoff at this premise. Especially with the frequencies of audio.

But we are never going to win that battle.

Seriously, there is NO winning a debate when one is using the human ear as the "tester" versus proven scientific equipment using triple blind "testers".

So, an electified volume pedal can and often does counteract BOTH anamolies:

1. noise

2. "percieved" change in tone.

What hath "man" wrought?

carl

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Sorry Carl, I disagree.

Pot Volume pedals do change tone.
To prove it plug you guitar straight into an amp, no pedal. Play and listen. Then try it with a pedal. I hear a difference.

If you have a standard electric guitar, like a Tele, the tone is much brighter at full volume, roll the volume back a bit and it gets bassier.

This belongs in ELECTRONIC, moving it...

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

It's all personal preference, as far as I'm concerned. Some people swear by the powered (amplified) pedals, while others do just fine without them. One thing is for sure...a lot of really good sounds were played on the old pot-pedals.

I suppose some of the increased preference for humbucking pickups came with the increased use of the amplified pedals. You see, a pedal that will amplify a music signal will amplify all signals. Any stray EMI (that's "hum", for the uninitiated) that your single-coil pickup recieves will be amplified along with your music.

When some players went with the amplified pedals, they noticed that their old single-coil pickups were very good at picking up stray hum too! So they went with the humbucking pickups. That solved their "problem". Other players, like myself, stayed with the single coils and the pot pedal because they did everything they were supposed to do, and hum was not a problem. They were simple, easy to repair, and quite reliable.

In the final analysis, it all boils down to personal preference. If either was vastly superior, it would rapidly become the the only one in use. The split between the users of old technology (pot pedals) and the new technology (amplified, or powered pedals) is still close to 50-50. But if significantly more players experience problems with the new (imported) pots, I imagine they will become less and less popular.

At least we still have a choice...and that's good thing!

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Someone told me that the same 'advantage' that's gained by using a Hilton (or similar VP) can be had by plugging a standard 'pot' pedal through the 'effects' loop on the front of a lot of amps!

Is this true? Could it be that I might have saved $269.00? In truth, I've hardly used the Hilton - it's fine, but I don't hear a dramatic difference between it and my old Goodrich ones. I do enjoy the feeling of security that comes with owning three pedals! (My guitar's a LeGrande with SCs).

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Roger Rettig

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Joey,

We will agree to disagree. I could give you the reason one perceives a change of tone when doing what you did. But the better part of valor says, "we ain't gonna win that battle." It has been fought by the best for over 50 yrs. No way, it would ever change either hypothesis. Best to leave it alone.

Take care dear friend,

carl

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Roger, Do a search for "Three Wire Hookup" and you'll see discussions about this.

It does work. I prefer the Hilton pedal.

Carl, we disagree and I respect your opinions. You don't have to "let it lay".
If you want to explain you position, I'll be happy to read it with an open mind.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Moved to ELECTRONICS

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Roger, yes putting the volume pedal in the effects loop does eliminate the tone change. The reason is, the pedal is now changing the volume of the preamp instead of the level of the raw signal from your pickup.

The three wire hookup on Peavey amps is one way to accomplish this. I do it with my Boss GX-700 by running my volume pedal in its effects loop. The loop is movable in the effects chain so I can choose which effects are before and which are after the volume pedal.

It works great for me!

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Who wants to buy a Hilton!?

(Thanks for the replies.)

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I don't use a powered pedal because I just don't like the power chord running to the pedal. I still like the combination of Goodrich pedal and match-box. But then, I'm getting to be kind of an old fart so what do I know?
Uff-Da!

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

While we're on the topic (sort of), does the 3-wire hook-up work on Evans amps? My Evans has an f/x in and out.

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Roger, maybe you should ask, who has bought a Hilton Pedal. Let me tell you just a few:
Tim McGraw's group, Clint Black's group, Merle Haggard's group, Mel Tillis's group, Roy Clark's group, only to name a few of the many world famous groups. Oh yes, the Steel Guitar Hall of Fame players John Hughey, Hall Rugg, Doug Jernigan, Herby Wallace, to name just a few.
Oh yes, and the guitar builders,Zumsteel, Mullen, Williams, Marlen to name a few. Oh yes, and the many famouis players like JayDee Maness, Dickey Overby, Bobbe Seymour, Dewitt Scott, Robbie Springfield, Frenchy Messiner and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds more. These people know steel guitar. They have not bought my pedal because I am a nice guy. Roger they hear something they like!

[This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 29 January 2003 at 08:42 PM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Roger,
What the three-cord hookup DOESN'T get you is
1. the ability to set the starting point for volume increase (e.g., completely off all the way back OR leaving a little signal like some players prefer)
2. the ability to set the overall gain from the pedal
3. freedom from string breakage
4. freedom from pot replacement

That's EASILY worth $269 to me. Thanks again for great products, Keith.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Keith,

The difficulty with 'posting' one's thoughts in this medium is that it sometimes fails to communicate 'nuance' - I was being slightly 'tongue in cheek', and not seriously offering my pedal for sale.

While I appreciate that endorsement (in the strict sense of the word!) by high-profile players goes a long way to validating sundry products, I'm a little uncomfortable with the implication that theirs are the only opinions that count - I play for a living, too.

Having said that, I was looking for a second pedal, and Herby strongly recommended the Hilton to me - it has a lot to offer and I'm pleased with it. Shortly after I bought it last year, I played a gig for three months in a questionable environment - lots of heat and dust - not only did I NOT use my #1 guitar (my Emmons), I also decided against using the Hilton; I feared that its complexity might render it vulnerable in such conditions.

I was really only seeking confirmation of what had been suggested to me (using the FX loop) - I'm hopelessly 'lost' in areas of electronics, and simply thought it an interesting possibility - I intended no 'slight' to your product, which has given satisfaction.

I appreciate everyone's input - thank you.

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Roger Rettig

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Personally ...

I have discovered that the sound I'm after comes from running my Horseshoe Magnet Pickups STRAIGHT to the jack (no tone/volume pots in the guitar) ...to my Hilton Pedal .... to a 70's Fender Twin with its volume set above 8.

This way ... everything that my pickups have to offer is there ... everything my "glowin' " Fender tubes have to offer is there ... I have just one device controlling my volume .... usually at very low levels (I'm just a Hawaiian steel player) ...

All without any loss of the crystalline highs that I enjoy so much ...

Works for me anyway ...

Thanks for the "State of the Art" device ... and for the "Comes on in Reverse" special order ....

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My Steel Shoes Site

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 30 January 2003 at 09:43 AM.]

Daniel Vorp · From: Burlington, NC USA

I might as well add my 2 bits. I was using a pot pedal and the 3 cord attachment method through a Nashville 1000. I recently purchased a Hilton pedal and went back to the one cord attachment method through the same Nashville 1000. I noticed a distinct and positive difference in the presence and clarity of the guitar. A telling indicator to me was as soon as I started playing with the Hilton pedal on a gig, the piano player in the band instantly recognized the difference and asked me "What did you do to get that sound?".

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Roger, I did not take offense at anything you said. By the way, thanks for using my product. All of the people mentioned above have purchased my pedal. Meaning I didn't give it to them. In December I got a gift in the mail from Tim MrGraw and his band,"The Dance Hall Doctors". The gift was their new picture book/album. Beautiful large bound book with great pictures and stories of Tim and the band. Along with this was the new CD. There was a personal hand written note thanking me for my product, and telling me how much they appreciate it. I was really surprised that they sent all this to me, since they bought my product. I didn't give it to them. I can tell you this much--from the bottom of my heart! I care greatly about the people using my products.
It is a great feeling inside, and a great honor for me to see great players, not so great players, or even beginners using my products. The hair on the back of my neck still raises up when I see someone on stage using my product and sounding great. 2nd best is not a option for me and my product.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Larry - Using a Hilton pedal gives you "freedom from string breakage"?

Even that pesky 3rd string?

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Regarding the original question, the Goodrich L-120 is not a powered pedal. It uses a pot just like your Ernie Ball.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

When I first responded to this 'thread', it was more through idle curiosity than anything else, but it got me thinking and wanting to make fresh comparisons.

I've been practising through my Musicman 115-65 using one of my Goodrich pedals. I plugged the Hilton in, and the difference was startling! There's way more clarity, the highs really sing, and it's much louder! All the muddiness disappeared - truthfully, I felt a bit silly having said I could detect little difference in that earlier 'post'.

Then I hooked it up with my NV400 - much less distinction, and it was this combination on which I'd judged the Hilton's merits before. I guess I just don't care for the tone I can get out of that Peavey.

I then tried it with my favourite amp, the Evans FET500 ('85 or so) - I think these amps possess those positive attributes already (clarity, etc), and the difference was less dramatic, 'though the level was higher with the Keith's pedal.

My NV1000 (which I infinitely prefer to the NV400) is set-up down the road, so that test will have to wait.

In summary, I'd only tried the Hilton with an amp I didn't much care for - probably not a fair test! I was still interested to learn from you guys that my informant (regarding the FX loop) was essentially correct, but I officially withdraw my Hilton from sale

and I've vowed to make it my first choice in future!

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Roger Rettig

Bill Hisle · From: Shawnee, Kansas, USA

Jim, another member had an L120 for sale, and it was AC powered (sent me pics), unless he didn't get the model number right. As a relative novice, I was interested to know the difference, and I must say, all of you guys have really come through with some great information. I very much appreciate all I've gained here at the forum.

I've currently got an Ernie Ball pedal that causes my knee to hit the bottom of the guitar, even with the legs lengthened. How much difference would there be between the EB and the L120, or the low profile Hilton?

[This message was edited by Bill Hisle on 30 January 2003 at 01:44 PM.]

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Bill, the Ernie Ball pedal was designed for 6 string standard stand up guitar players.
The Goodrich pedals, and my pedals, were designed for pedal steel guitar players.
The Ernie Ball pedal is taller than the Goodrich L120. My standard pedal is almost the same height as the L120. My low profile pedal is the "lowest" pedal made that still moves up and down 1 1/2 inches. For those of you who don't have the money to spend on a powered pedal, or a pre-amp box, I highly recommend the Peavey 3 cord hookup. The Peavey 3 cord hookup method will help your sound. If you have the money to spend, I would suggest either the Goodrich preamp box, or my preamp box, the Digital Sustain. Both these units are designed for steel guitar and use with 500K pot pedals. The differences between these preamp boxes and the Peavey 3 cord hookup are as follows: #1 Adjustable gain, where the 3 cord hookup has a fixed gain. #2 Peavey could not build amps just for the small number of steel players in the world. They would go broke. Therefore the preamps in the 3 cord hookup are designed for 6 string standard guitar "first".#3 You have 3 cords run, when using the 3 cord hookup and only one with a box pre-amp. Your next choice, if you have the money to spend, is a powered pedal designed for steel guitar. As I understand it, I am the only one making a powered pedal just for steel guitar. Dewitt Scotty Scott recently informed me that Goodrich dropped their powered pedal. I don't know this to be fact, but was told this by Scotty. I invented the electronic technology inside my pedal and have a patent pending. My pedal has no POT and it is not old light beam technology either. It is new infrared technology I invented. I wish there was some more people making powered pedals for steel guitar. I want a person to have a choice. My advise is let your "ears" be your guide.

Buck Grantham R.I.P. · From: Denham Springs, LA. USA

I have been using a Hilton pedal for over 3 years . I've got the sound I want and have had no problems with the pedal. The pot pedals seems to take a lot of my highs away. Just what I hear.

Jeff Peterson · From: Nashville, TN USA

Yup..

[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 09 February 2003 at 06:23 AM.]

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