How much power do we really need

Joe Smith · From: Charlotte, NC, USA

I used to think that it took a lot of power to amplify a pedal steel.

Lately I have been using my old Standel amp on all of my gigs. It's a tube amp that puts out about 35 watts. I seem to have plenty of head room and everyone can hear me with no problem.

Do we really need those big high powered amps?

Jim Bob Sedgwick · From: Clinton, Missouri USA

The guy with the loudest amp wins.

Seriously, I used a Standel Custom with JBL 15 for years. They get a great tone and will play loud enough for me. If more volume is needed, they can sure be miked.

[This message was edited by Jim Bob Sedgwick on 25 August 2002 at 06:44 PM.]

Joe Smith · From: Charlotte, NC, USA

Jim I agree.
But it doesn't have to be a Standel. I think any good 50 watt tube amp using a 15" speaker would work just fine for steel.

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

I play most gigs these days with a 30 watt tube amp (a THD BiValve). I'd hate to play a gig it wasn't loud enough for.

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

In my opinion, 300 watts is for masochists.

Seriously, no guitar player uses that kind of power, in fact only bass players need that kind of wattage and I doubt if it's really necessary for them.

Sure, we don't want distortion but smaller amps with good speakers in properly designed cabinets will deliver the goods.

Where you position the amp onstage is critical. Be sure you can hear it louder than anyone else.

We have 3000 watt sound systems these days, and monitors so good only the rich and famous could afford them just a few years ago. Let the PA do the heavy lifting.

If your're using a crummy sound system AND playing with adolescent, power mad guitarists or horn sections, maybe you need a 200 or 300 watt rig. I pity the condition of your ears under those circumstances. I gave up that kind of abuse years ago.
I'm currently using a 40-watt Fender Deluxe Hot Rod, with analog delay and EQ and the tone is do die for. Plus, it's easy on the (old) back.

I should say, I'm not the one to tell anyone what they SHOULD do. I only know what works for me.

--JR

Brandin · From: Newport Beach CA. USA

The only amp I use is a 30 watt Rickenbacker
M-15 made in 1956.

GB

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

You know, I'd almost think we were talking horse power and cars here. The same logic and reasoning applys. I mean didn't we all fool General Motors and Ford a couple decades back and maybe still do. I can understand someone cringing over a 1000 watt rig like I use but then I cringe when some little chick @ 5'2"/100 lbs passes me in a Dodge Super SUV with 4 or five hundred horses. She might as well have a Sherman tank but don't try to tell her that.....she's got exactly what she needs and wants and it doesn't matter a dang what you think about her mojo !!

Regards, Paul

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

Anything that goes up to 11...

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

You need to triple the amount of power in a tube amp to get the equivalent headroom from a solid state amp. I've been playing with a stereo tube amp that's 50 watts per side, and it can get VERY LOUD.

I'm moving this topic to the Electronics section of the Forum...

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

David Doggett · Posted 25 Aug 2002 10:05 pm

I think of the extra watts built into dedicated pedal steel amps as giving more sustain. You always attack notes with your volume pedal backed way off, increasing it only to get sustain. So you are never playing at the amps full volume, even if it is turned all the way up. You're probably playing at only a quarter of the amps volume capabilities. In a loud bar with a loud band, especially if there is a drummer, a 50 watt amp may be loud enough but I sometimes find myself hitting the end of the volume pedal before I get all the sustain I want. Even a 100 watt amp has sometimes not been enough. Usually by the time I discover this we're going full tilt and it is too late to wrangle a mic for my amp.

I suppose if you always mic your amp from the start you can get by with 50 watts or whatever. But its nice to get all that sustain with a 200 or 400 watt amp without having to screw with mics and PAs and monitors. Even with one of these big amps you're starting your notes with about the volume a regular guitar player gets from a 30 to 50 watt amp.

By the way, according to the engineers, 50 watts is 50 watts, and gives the same volume (at the same tone settings and through the same speaker) regardless of tubes or solid state. That's the whole point of having a common metric like watts. It's the power that goes to the speaker, period. At least that's what the engineers say.

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

B0b's calculus of 1 watt of tube amp power equalling 3 watts of transistor is about right. While this isn't apparent logically, it makes perfect sense, because when a transistor amp gets anywhere close to its' stated output, it sounds like crap. Whereas a tube power amp starts sounding great when it reaches that same point. I have a tube power amp with 90X2 watts which I have never gotten close to maxing out, whereas I found my Stewart amp with 1000 watts to be just about adequate.

Ricky0ne1 · From: West Peoria, IL, USA

'bout 100 watts...

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

I've been underpowered with my Evans I've been loud enough with my Standel so it depends on the drummer and the other players and the venue. To double the power of a 35 watt amp, you would need 350 watts.

Joe Smith · From: Charlotte, NC, USA

Brandin, I'll bet that Rickenbacker M-15 is one sweet sounding amp.

Steve Stallings · From: Houston/Cypress, Texas

High wattage power amps are really more about crystal clear, distortion free, sound reproduction with lots of headroom. It really isn't about "loudness". Volume is logarithmic, not linear. To increase volume by 3db requires a doubling of power.
If a sound has 10 times the power of a reference (10dB) we hear it as twice as loud. If we merely double the power (3dB), the difference will be just noticeable.

Here is a technical article about this relationship.
http://arts.ucsc.edu/ems/music/tech_background/TE-06/teces_06.html

My band uses right at 30,000 watts in the FOH sound system. Are we loud? Nope, but it sure has that quality associated with medium sized touring systems. Our stage volume is very low. I am currently using two Evans FEV500 amps with one a dry signal and the other a delay. Both are miked and mixed from FOH.

I don’t think that large power amps have anything to do with masochism, but rather a realistic approach to sonic purity.

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
Emmmons/Mullen/Remington
Evans

[This message was edited by Steve Stallings on 26 August 2002 at 08:19 AM.]

Keith Murrow · From: Wichita, KS

..

[This message was edited by Keith Murrow on 26 October 2004 at 04:30 PM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

200 a side bay-beeeee!

Joe Smith · From: Charlotte, NC, USA

Steve, I agree with you about using a lot of power for a PA. You do need that for head room not to be loud. When you mike the bass and Kick,and start adding vocals and the other instruments, it does takes a lot of power. But, for pedal steel I just don't think you need that much. I have all kinds of head room and plenty of sustain with my small amp.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

A bass requires more power, because the low frequencies have to really be "pushed" to be heard. If you look at a graphic EQ, the mids are scooped somewhat, since that's where we hear the easiest. But, since the right foot is essentially a manual compressor, and volume takes precedence over dynamics most of the time, then whatever it takes to stay clean. Steve, as a doctor, I hope you are aware of the damage that PA of mass destruction you guys use, to the hearing of long-term listeners, as well as you guys in the band. We used 2 or 3 thousand watts for FOH back twenty or so years ago, and a thousand or so for monitors, and my right ear STILL rings. So ALL you guys be careful with them ears. After all, how can we argue about tuning, cabinet drop, etc., if we can't HEAR?
Bobby Boggs has an all-pull Beltone hearing aid for sale-and it's BLACK!

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

I agree with the need for "more headroom" in theory. The trouble is, too many sound techs and bandleaders use more headroom for "more volume." It's addictive in a way. With all that clean sound, you tend to use it. I have heard it work to good advantage. Too many times it doesn't.

I've listened to performances and concerts since the late '60s and while sound quality has improved, the volume has gone way up. Certain performers can handle it properly and use the dynamic capabilities of a great sound system, but too many just crank it up and leave it cranked. They mistake "loud" for "good." I've been on those stages and I know the temptation. Cranking up can be fun, sure.

The style of music I play doesn't demand that exhilaration of "bigness." I hope the craft and the performance of the music itself provides the thrill. Recently, I've been delighted to discover that my 40-watt tube amp provides the best tone I've heard. And when I have control over the stage volume, that amp, properly miked is more than adequate.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

B0b's calculus of 1 watt of tube amp power equalling 3 watts of transistor is about right.Dan

To double the power of a 35 watt amp, you would need 350 watts. Chas

Sorry but I'm a dummy when it come to electronics.But is it 3 times or 10 times more power with tubes?

Bobby Boggs has an all-pull Beltone hearing aid for sale-and it's Black.Steve, don't you keep with what these boys are ah telling you.Dang it boy.Push pull is the only way to go.All pull just want get it.

bb

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

I had no idea that tube and transister wattages were different, I'm just repeating second-hand knowledge.

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

What about adding the efficency of the speaker into the equation? I read somewhere once that some speakers only deliver 5% of what is put into them, while others deliver 25%. If this is true, then the speaker could make a huge difference in volume.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Bobby, you need to type louder, I can't hear a word you're saying

Seriously, I've looked through every electronics book I have, and NOTHING mentions the difference between a tube watt, or a transistor watt. Boylestad says,"A 3-dB increase in output requires that the power level be doubled.In the audio industry, it is a generally accepted rule that an increase in sound level is accompsished with 3-dB increments in the output level. In other words, a 1-dB increase is barely detectable and a 2-dB increase, juust discernable." Whatever happened to the old rule of thumb that the drummer needed to be the loudest thing on the stage?
And as for speaker efficiency, a speaker is an inductor, and inductors are notoriously inefficient. And, although a speaker's efficiency may factor into percieved loudness, it has nothing at all to do with sound quality. IMO, high efficiency speakers sound artificial. So, run enough power to do the job, but no more than you can carry back to the van in one trip! God bless!

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Steve.
That was a pretty good post for a Dobro picker.

I thought (yall) where against electricity and such.

Just picking at you bro.
As for power I've cut down to a 1000 watts per side.

No,I can no longer compete with the guitar player who some how gets 10,000 watts out of a Fender Twin.But I know when I'm licked

bb

[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 27 August 2002 at 05:48 PM.]

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