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Topic: Sheerhorn Weissenborn |
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Jerry Clardy
From:
El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 4:01 am |
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| Andy - Do you know of one like it for less? Tim Scheerhorn guitars are on a very long backorder. (3-4yrs?) |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 5:38 am
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| Sorry, I don't. You don't see these on the used market very often. I'd go for a Bear Creek or a Yanuziello before a Sheerhorn. But hey - that's just me. |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 5:52 am
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| and it's also just me. No way. |
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Jerry Clardy
From:
El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 7:01 am
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Have you compared these Weisenborns?
I know the Scheerhorn has no competitition as far has the regular resos at least that I've seen. |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 7:54 am
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Never having played any kind of Sheerhorn, I cannot give my opinion of the quality of his guitars.
I do have my opinion of a $5000.00 price tag and a 4 year wait.....and it ain't a pretty one. There is no middle ground here. It's either a sword-in-the-stone instrument with mystical qualities or all smoke and mirrors.
I am chomping at the bit to play any kind of Sheerhorn so that I can post from actual experience and with intelligence.
"Jerry plays a Sheerhorn" is not criteria for me. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 8:10 am
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| I've never played a Sheerhorn but I've heard a lot of them on records and DVD by Douglas, Ickes, Van Meter, etc. I've talked to Tim and his goal, he told me, was to build a resophonic that could hold its own with a banjo in a bluegrass jam session situation. That's a valid goal and I'm sure he alters that goal to suit customer preferences. As a group, I'm still more impressed with Carroll Benoit's resophonics then any other current reso builder. The design of the Sheerhorn Weissenborn seems to reflect some of the Weissie vibe in general, without reflecting the soul of this kind of guitar. Not having played one, perhaps this is unfair, but that's my gut reaction. |
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Ron Bednar
From:
Rancho Cordova, California, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 9:48 am
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I am very much interested in Weissenborn style guitars and have been looking into builders that offer them at a more affordable price point for me. Bear Creek, Scheerhorn, Mermer and Dart are all out of my range right now. But during my poking around I found a couple comparisons between Dart, Scheerhorn and Bear Creek Weisses and The Dart Weisses were rated above the Bear Creek and Scheerhorn. The Dart's start at $2500 and go up from there. Unfortunately, I can't find those comparisons again, it was during a couple days worth of surfing and I didn't bookmark them. But here's the Dart site: http://www.luthier.com/HawSteel.html
There is a customer letter posted there.
I settled on Lazy River guitars and Nance, a real fine young man BTW, is doing a custom built baritone Weiss for me. http://www.lazyriverguitars.com/
I'll post a sound clip when it's fini. 
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 10:12 am
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| Quote: |
| Mr. Weissenborn had a great idea when he came up with this design |
even though Chris Knutsen was building them before Hermann Weissenborn.  |
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Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 10:40 am
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I've played a Scheerhorn (reso)!
It was about 5 years ago. I remember it sounding pretty good, but my world wasn't rocked or anything like that... |
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Russ Young
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 11:07 am
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| Howard, on behalf of Knutsen owners and Norwegian luthiers, you are hereby awarded a rimshøt! |
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Mike D
From:
Phx, Az
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 11:31 am
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These prices are simply market driven. I've played flattop guitars made by Kevin Ryan, and while they were very well made they were no better than guitars made by others who's products sell for far less. Ryan's guitars got to be in such demand that people were selling their place in line for double what they paid, (prices are usually locked in upon deposit) or immediately put on eBay upon delivery! In a case like that the builder has no choice but to raise his prices or increase production, but that's it's own can 'o worms.
For builder's like Scheerhorn who probably doesn't want to run a small factory and sit behind a desk all day, raising prices is the only way to slow down orders and remain sane.
I agree with Andy and Howard (and so would Tim S. I'm sure) that there are many other worthy choices for those who don't 'have' to own a particular name.
My only other comment is, "$40 Klusons on a $4K guitar??"  |
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Jerry Clardy
From:
El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 2:55 pm
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I bought and tried a few types of resos before getting my Scheerhorn resos. There was nothing wrong with the others but the Scheerhorns have a really great dynamic response, volume, workmanship and a sound of their own. They have the "sound" that I was looking for. I've noticed that the ones with the newer cones are even better than the ones just previous. To me it's like comparing Caddys and Lincolns to Rolls. They're all good enough but the Scheerhorn is the best I've tried so far. Compared to other instruments, such as jazz guitars, they are not overpriced as far as I can tell. Look at Benedettos and Buscarinos for examples.
There's an article about Tim in Vintage Guitar magazine that pretty well attests to his commitment to building superior instruments. click here |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 4:56 pm
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Comparing the price of a resophonic guitar to the price of an archtop guitar is apricots to mangos. You might as well compare it to a Stradivarius. I can't agree with that.
Comparing resophonic guitars to resophonic guitars is the valid comparison, IMO. You did just that and according your personal experience and sound preferences, made your decision. That, I agree with.
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 5:13 pm
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| Most high end resophonic makers are committed to building the best they can. I have no doubt that any given Sheerhorn, Benoit, Beard, Allen, etc. is basically in the same high quality ballpark and that each makes the occasional instrument that is truly exceptional. As Jerry said, it all comes down to the sound we like to hear and the aesthetics that flaot our individual boat. Getting back to the modern Weissenborn copies, I own a Koa Bear Creek - the first one built with rosewood binding. I spent a number of hours at Bill Hardin's old shop in Monteray talking guitars, tone, etc. and his goal was to replicate the sound of the originals but with master quality construction and greater volume. Does it sound like a vintage Weissenborn? I'd say, no, not exactly but it's a powerful instrument with a tone that pleases me and sustain to beat the band. Tim's tonal goal may be indeed be different. Joe Yanuziello tries to get more of a sustained, Martin flat top sound than a Weissenborn tone. None of the instruments we've been talking about would be bad to own. As for price, I agree with Howard. Jazz guitars and mandolins are a different demographic with a much higher demand thus can command higher prices. To be fair, there aren't many luthiers getting rich off making string instruments. [This message was edited by Andy Volk on 06 June 2004 at 06:15 PM.] |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 6:22 pm
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We are fortunate to have many fine and innovative luthiers, especially building resophonic and steel guitars. If it's one thing we certainly have a lot of, it's choices.
It wasn't always that way. Remember when we had just...."Dobro?" |
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Jerry Clardy
From:
El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 3:42 am
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I dunno...I've owned a group of archtops and still have some and I think Ol' Tim ranks right up there with Bob Benedetto, Jim Triggs, and Roger Borys. He has his own design and specialized knowledge. Both types of instruments are acoustic and are handmade except now Bob is using Guild craftsmen. As far as I know, Tim is still building his. And, he has to hurdle the complexities of the resonator that are quite a bit more than with the archtops. IMHO, I think the categories of handmade jazz guitars and handmade reso guitars are comparable, but of course, that is only MHO.
Then, again, if we add popular demographics, the arguments may hold except I believe there are more expert archtop luthiers than expert reso luthiers and proportionally they may be comparable. If nothing else, the availability premium is one thing that should hold the price of the Scheerhorn. e.g., I see them advertised but they are not available except with a deposit and a long, long waiting period.
Well! We've certainly discussed the heck out of this topic! Thanks for the conversation and have a good day.
/jc[This message was edited by Jerry Clardy on 07 June 2004 at 05:08 AM.] |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 8:40 am
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| Quote: |
| We've certainly discussed the heck out of this topic |
Yes, we did, in an amicable and gentlemanly fashion.
As the govenor of Kali-Phornia once said..."I'll be bach"......
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Ron Bednar
From:
Rancho Cordova, California, USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 8:50 am
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Yep we did discuss the heck out of it and in a polite manner as always. And maybe I should just leave it...but, I have to disagree with you one last time Jerry.
This is not to take away from Tim's, or any other reso builders art or craftmanship but IMHO building a reso and building an archtop are two different undertakings, even though they are both technically acoustic guitars. I think the finishing process is probably the most they have in common. The reso builder does not have to hurdle the complexities of the resonator as an extra of the construction process...it is THE main factor of building the guitar. IMO the archtop builder is dealing with a more complex structure than the reso builder. The wood of the reso is a form that does not move or resonate in the way an acoustic guitar does. The cone is what resonates and the internal workings of the guitar are designed to aid the cone. In the case of Tim's design, the outstanding factor is the scoop. I am sure there are many other subtle factors of Tim's design that figure in too, but the scoop is the main thing. In other modern reso designs it's about channels and/or baffles or in some cases none of the above. Either way, you are happy with your choices.
But I think they are two different critters. |
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Jerry Clardy
From:
El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 3:30 pm
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| Quote: |
| ..."I'll be bach"...... |
Bach's good.
But seriously, if that's possible...I don't think the archtop is all that difficult to make. Just go to the stewmac.com site and get Bob Benedetto's instruction tapes on how to make an archtop guitar, go to some seminars, maybe do some apprentice work and practice, practice, practice. (That's how you get to Carnegie Hall, too, isn't it?) If you're already a master wood carver, you can be like Nelson Palen on the guitarsnjazz.com site. He graduated from making nice wooden bowls to making really nice archtops. Maybe the reso luthiers could go to making archtops and get big pay raises. But I hope they don't.
Edit in retrospect:
* Ron makes a good point. It looks like the main differences that don't equate are the carved top and back on the archtops and the resonator on the resos. They both require artisan craftsmen but in different ways. I leave it to the experts to say which skill is worth more $ and why.
[This message was edited by Jerry Clardy on 08 June 2004 at 06:28 AM.] |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Ron Bednar
From:
Rancho Cordova, California, USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 5:10 pm
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I wonder where they are made, if they are done here or are another Mexico hydrid? Goldtone also does the Beard reso. I have not heard anything about the Weiss, I would like to hear a sound clip or hear from someone that has played one.
What we need is an instrument review setup somewhere that would do an honest, objective report on the various guitars we all talk about. Of course getting builders to send a guitar in for such a review might not prove too easy...But wouldn't it be nice to have a part of the forum setup for just that?
What would it take for that to happen? |
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Mike D
From:
Phx, Az
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Posted 8 Jun 2004 6:22 am
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Archtops require some different skills than making wood body resonators or flattops (and some of the same obviously). The real 'trick' with archtops is making one that sounds good, which can be more difficult and require a few more instruments under your belt than other types. They are more like violins/cellos than guitars and learning to do the arch and graduations in the top and back and recurves simply requires some repetition to get right.
The other side of the coin is that compared to flattops the archtop is still a bit of a mystery to most. There's Bennedetto's book, Frank Finnochio has a class I think and Bill Moll has taught a couple classes on the MIMForum that turned out several really nice guitars (that's where Nelson Palen got his start I believe). But there's no where near the level of information on making the things out there that there is with acoustics.
------------------
Half-assed bottleneck and lap slide player. Full-assed Builder of resonator instruments.
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 8 Jun 2004 6:51 am
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| Also, a very important factor that nobody has taken into consideration in building a high end archtop is.....the surname. If your last name ends in "i" or "o", and/or begins with "Di or "De", you are halfway to building a world class jazz guitar. If you work in your shop wearing a sleeveless T shirt(preferably stained) and boxer shorts, you are guaranteed tone to the bone...... |
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Loni Specter
From:
West Hills, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Jun 2004 7:59 am
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Unless there is a way to dent-tune a resonator cone (change the sound by deforming the metal) I say there's no way reso builders can be compared to archtop makers. Archtops are individually carved not only for shape, but for tone as well.I remember watching Mark Lacey do this for hours. The tops are tap-tuned and wood is carved away on the inside to achieve the desired tone. This takes a good deal of time and a trained ear with perfect pitch, a trait I do not personaly have.
As far as the high prices. What makes anything worth what it costs? The fact that you are even discussing this makes Tim's guitars worth that much more. Above a certain level of $ =quality, you have pride of ownership/braging rights as the driving force. We are all just big kids and we all need to look forward to something grand being under that Christmas tree. |
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