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Topic: Always Too Loud????? |
Jeff Coffell
From:
Killeen Texas
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Posted 17 Feb 2002 6:32 pm |
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won't call any names here, but most every steel player that has played with or set in with our little band will nearly rip your ears off most of the night. Anyone else have this problem? I've been playing steel about 18 mos now and I hope I never have that problem. It's tough on the rest of the band expecially the singers. Newman always told us to stay off the singer and keep the volume equal to the rest of the lead players. Steel or any other lead instrument should never be louder than the singers voice even when taking a ride.
The ideal way to have any lead instrument on stage is at a very low stage volume and let the p.a. do the work and put you out front where it counts. If any of the studio musicians or stage pros are reading this, please give me some of your opinions and suggestions.
PLUMB COUNTRY |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2002 7:13 pm
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| When I had an ensemble, the rule was, if you can't hear what everyone else is playing, you're playing too loud. |
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Tim Rowley
From:
Pinconning, MI, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2002 8:08 pm
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Newman told ya right. Do it like he said and remain employed and employable!
Tim R. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Feb 2002 8:22 pm
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I guess tellin' them to turn down doesn't work?  Most problems with players being too loud are caused by them not having their amp pointed directly at their head. I set my amp on a chair, or an amp stand directly behind me, and point the speaker directly at the back of my head. That way, if I play too loud, I'm the one that's taking the brunt of the noise! 
You can have the most powerful amp made, and if you are close to it, but off to the side, or above or below the speaker by a few feet (for instance, putting the amp flat on the floor, and then standing or sitting in front of it) the majority of the sound misses you! This is when (and also what causes) most players to play too loud. (I'm not advocating self-induced deafness here, just trying to illustrate the principles involved.)
While keeping the above in mind, also keep in mind that the player you can't reason with is not the one you want in your band, no matter how damn good he is.
"Turn down or you're fired" usually works. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 17 Feb 2002 9:01 pm
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| As usual, Donny is correct. In addition, I also have my steel put in my monitor so that I get a double hit from the front and the back. It keeps the stage volume down. Anyone who doesn't go through the mains and let the P.A. do the work is just plain stupid. We also have a sound man. Steel guitar is the only instrument that I've heard that when you get fifteen feet from the stage the sound dies in the mix. Without going through the mains, its useless to expect to be heard out there with just an amp. Still I see some that do and you can't hear them out front when they are playing. They can probably hear themselves just fine. |
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Al Udeen
From:
maple grove mn usa
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Posted 17 Feb 2002 9:35 pm
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| Just plain stupid? that includes a lot of pretty good players! |
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Frank Parish
From:
Nashville,Tn. USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2002 10:10 pm
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| The only problem I've got with playing with the amp at the back of your head is how do you hear anything else with the amp that close to your ears? My amps sit on the floor with casters on the amps. I'd prefer to have them maybe 3 inches higher but this will do. The guitar player is right next to me with his amp in a chair and all I hear is him. I try to sit as far back as I can to get away from his amp so I can hear me and the rest of the band. What if you don't mike anything at all? Most of the bars I play in wouldn't be big enough to mike anything. Every time I played with my amp in a chair I never played loud enough to be heard because all I heard was me and thought I was too loud. |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 17 Feb 2002 10:28 pm
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| I've always had the amp behind me on a chair - and lately an amp stand, as Donny says. I've never had any problem hearing the rest of the band, either when it was running thru the system or not. I've never been told I was too loud on the steel, well OK once but that's a long story and an exception! Last summer we had a soundman who asked me "ever think of putting your amp in front of you, tipped up like a monitor?" This is one sure way to sour my attitude! I told him (and anyone else who suggests this, "When I see (insert name of any great player here) playing with his amp on the floor in front of him, pointed backwards up at his face, then I'll consider it!" He later told me I was the quietest steel player he'd ever worked with...don't know who the others were. There's a topic for you, soundmen...how many times has one said, "I couldn't hear you at all in the first verse" .... |
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John Floyd
From:
R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 12:38 am
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| Quote: |
| The ideal way to have any lead instrument on stage is at a very low stage volume and let the p.a. do the work and put you out front where it counts. |
Those are good words, but there's always one on a show who will keep turning up until he or she completely screws up a good mix and over ride the singers. Then the Soundman gets the blame when its too loud and the singers can't be heard. You have to have a pretty good mix on stage, by the pickers themselves, before you can sucessfully mike everything and reproduce that in the PA. The Soundman can't work miracles, when the stage volume is already too loud and one player is trying to be a "star". One guy is already too loud and the rest Turn up to "compensate" for it, then you get a "Volume Chase" going and everything turns to Sh!t. Or you get the Genius who says "Lets Crank it up and really rock". Thats the best way to get me to turn off all the instrument mikes and let them "really rock".  Sometimes the only solution is to turn off all the instrument mikes, There probably is more than enough coming thru the vocal mikes when the "volume war" is going on.
I don't recomend putting any instrument in the monitors, Using Equalizers and Feedback Killers to make the monitor system work properly, tends to color the instrument's tone and a soundman can get into serious trouble doing that. As a rule the Instruments amp should be used as a monitor and The PA used to faithfully reproduce and reinforce that tone and particular sound out front. Also having instruments in the monitors tends to increase the stage volume and muddies everything up, adding a lot of confusion in most cases. Also, I never put any effects on any of the instruments except for a little reverb on the drums and never any on the kick drum.
Herby Wallace will tell you up front to not put him in the monitors. Curly Chalker said once that He had worked for years to get his particular tone and a Soundman had screwed it up in 5 seconds.(I can't put what Curly said exactly said on this Forum) , but they were words to that effect. He was absolutely right and thats something to think about. No HOF Steeler wants a Soundman to choose his tone for him. People come to a steel Guitar show to hear Herby Wallace, John Hughey Doug Jernigan or Bill Stafford, not some soundman's idea of what he thinks they should sound like. Leave the Colorization of the sound for the singers, God knows they need it. When they get something like Pro-Tools to work in real time, everybody can be a live singer.
Also Soundmen have to contend with singers who will drop the mike to their side pointing down toward the monitors during the turn around causing feedback. Guess who gets the blame? Or you get a singer who wants to be a "Star" with a Wireless mike and roam in the Audience in front of the main speaker system. They always say " I saw it done on TV" They don't realize that There wasn't Several Thousand watts of power on the TV Studio Sound System and Those guys have probably rehearsed that particular move before doing it Live. I've had Horn Drivers go into meltdown because of singers doing this and That eats into my take home money.
If the whole Group isn't professional in their music and attitude, then miking the instruments probably isn't a good idea. It sure won't correct any problems in the Group itself. Remember, everyone has to work together to make a professional sound. Thats the way its done in the studios.
| Quote: |
| There's a topic for you, soundmen...how many times has one said, "I couldn't hear you at all in the first verse" |
Jim if there was a sound check made before the gig, then there's no excuse for it. but if there wasn't a sound check made, then He was pretty damn good to get you up in the mix in one verse.
| Quote: |
| Every time I played with my amp in a chair I never played loud enough to be heard because all I heard was me and thought I was too loud. |
Frank I can deal with that and put you right up front in the mix, in fact thats what I prefer. Theres a Dentist, Bob Strum, who plays the Saluda SC show who plays that way, real quiet and I have always been able to get him right up in the mix where his great playing belongs. Too Loud is Ten times much harder to deal with than too little.
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John
[This message was edited by John Floyd on 18 February 2002 at 02:17 AM.] |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 3:49 am
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Kevin, Kevin, Kevin,
"Anyone who doesn't go through the mains and let the PA do the work is just plain stupid".............That's a statement that only an amateur would make! The band I'm in now we mike the amps some of the time and the majority of the time we don't! I played full time for over 23 years from the 60's through the 80's and only saw an amp miked once or twice and that was usually at a large outdoor venue. Most of them we weren't miked either. I played at the Foothill Club in Signal Hill (Long Beach), California for a good while. That was one of the biggest clubs in the LA area for sure. The weekends probably had 500 to 700 people in there and not one amp mike but everything was heard because the musicians were experienced enough to know what to do. Also as far a vocal monitors go, how many of you older guys remember the days when there wasn't any such thing as a vocal monitor? I sure do! I remember playing the old Wagon Camp at Knott's Berry Farm in SoCal in the summer time. We had no amp mikes and no vocal monitors and everything sounded great. Guess what? We never seemed to ever have any feedback either. I hear some of these singers bitching about "I can't hear myself in the monitors" and saying they can't sing without them. Remember Hank Williams, Lefty Frizzell, and those dudes. They thought a monitor was one of the ships that fought in the civil war or something. Even though I have (and use) all the latest gadgets, effects, etc. I still long for the day when I'd go to the gig with one guitar and one amp, nothing else. The club had it's own Bogen PA until it was replaced by the Shure Vocal Master. There was a real raw edge to the music which has been lost and will never be regained. As far as myself on steel, I always set my amp flat on the floor behind me so I can hear the whole band and not just myself. A lot of guys who put it right behind them on a chair or something, tend to play too muddy as they're hearing a good tone to them but it loses the highs that way. When the amp's not in a direct shot to your head you can crank up the highs a little more so you can cut through the mix OK. And in closing, "Today's music ain't got no b@lls"...........Bye!
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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.
[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 18 February 2002 at 03:55 AM.] |
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Glenn Austin
From:
Montreal, Canada
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 8:22 am
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How do you make a guitar player turn down?
Put a piece of sheet music in front of him. |
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Glenn Austin
From:
Montreal, Canada
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 8:25 am
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| OOPS [This message was edited by Glenn Austin on 18 February 2002 at 09:38 AM.] |
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John Russell
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 9:25 am
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I'll re-run what I posted on another thread:
For the best performance, you need to hear yourself and you need to be heard out front. There's no "correct" way to amplify the group. Of the last five gigs I've played in five different rooms, the acoustics and stage layout is unique to each. Hence, the sound will vary in each.
I can only offer a few suggestions. When the onstage sound isn't within the parameters of acceptability, at least for me, the playing suffers. If my rig or amp doesn't sound good to me I don't play my best. The problem I often have on large stages is that the crews will often run the monitors too loud. If I can't get them to cooperate and turn down, I carry a heavy towel and drape it over my monitor. I endorse the idea of miking you rig if possible. If I count on my amp to deliver the sound out front, I may be too loud for people in front of me. If my amp is directly behind me pointed at my back, it will likely be too loud for the person standing next to me. Too many times I've played on stages where I couldn't hear myself until I was too loud.
I have built a folding brace which hooks on the back of my speaker cab and tilts it at about a 45 degree angle--Same as a stage monitor. I've used it for about 2 years and it's a great help. In some instances, I can can set it directly in front of me, if necessary, next to the vocal monitor (its a closed back cabinet). This works best when a sound system has individual mixes for each monitor so the other players can dial me up or down as necessary. Otherwise I set it in line with the other players' amps and turn myself at an angle so I can hear it loud and clear and they aren't hearing it too loud. If you're setup center stage at Scotty's (congratulations!) and no one is within several feet of you, setting the amp behind you will probably work.
There's no one "right" way to amplify yourself. And true, we used to do just fine in the old days with no monitors. That worked because we set the mains back on each side of the stage and kept the volume under control, thereby hearing the sound from the mains. Or in a really small room, you hear the sound bouncing off the wall across the room.
Oh yeah, John Floyd: I hear thru the grapevine that there is a Pro Tools-type device for real time performances. Now even more models can become pop stars!
--JR
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 9:38 am
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What about soundmen who wear earplugs?!
I see this on occassion and the whole band is sooooo loud it's literally deafening.
I usually tape gigs (although I recently dropped out of the group I was with for the last 5 years) and try to put the mic in a part of the room where I would expect a good mix.
If I listen to the tape and can't hear the steel, I arrange to meet with the soundman to review the tape. That helped alot.
(I guess this would work for non-mic'd gigs to learn where/how to set your amp).
Also playing recordings for your soundman (or bandmates)of what you think is a good steel mix helps them to understand what you are looking for.
I try to avoid playing un-mic'd these days because it does require alot more volume (I did it for years though).
I've been using a twin reverb leaned back directly behind me, but I have concidered putting it in front of me, but never actually did it because I didn't think it would look right.
Maybe those Nashville 400 wedges were a good idea?
There was a time when I was a lead singing guitar player and monitors always seemed like more of a feedback hassle than they were worth (either I couldn't hear 'em, or they were feeding back - probably our own fault for using crappy gear or just not learning how to run it right), so I stopped using them and just angled the mains in a bit, and cranked the vocals.
I've heard this method refferred to as using "Mainitors".
It's probably hard for folks who are a little farther up the ladder to understand these issues because they have the best gear (in ear monitors, no amps on stage, ect) and highly trained techs to run it (pro sound companies - or they have taken the time to learn how to run it "correctly" ).
But for the weekend warriors "Always Too Loud" is a real issue.
Permanent hearing damage is what is at risk so please protect your hearing!
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 9:43 am
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I have the same problem, and agree; it's a nightmare when you can't hear yourself because the guy next to you is waaaay too loud.
I have rarely ever met a lead guitarist who wasn't just ridiculous with his volume. The best I can do it try to get far away from them on stage. I hate it. And they won't change.
This past weekend, the bass player told me that I wasn't being heard on stage enough. I just said to him: "That's 'cause you can't see the forest for the trees" Then I turned to the lead player and said "Right, Trees ??"
-John |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 9:55 am
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I agree on the guitar player too loud thing.
I think they are the worst offenders for putting their amps directly behind them on the floor, not tilted back.
Unless you got ears in the back of your knees... well, you guys know the drill. |
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Steve Stallings
From:
Houston/Cypress, Texas
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 10:11 am
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Well, I'm pretty far DOWN the food chain but we have a touring sound system with over 25K watts. We have a separate monitor board that provides each of us with custom monitor feeds. My monitor is a JBL SR wedge with a 15 inch JBL speaker. It is powered by a QSC 1500 watt amp...not for loud, but for clear.
I adjust my monitor to sound virtually identical to my amps. I can not actually hear my amps once the monitor is on. I have to trust the sound guy to get it right out front.
In regards to Jeff...I've played probably as many gigs with him as any other steeler. I always thought he was asking me to turn up...
now I understand he was asking me to turn OFF!
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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 10:38 am
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| John Floyd, you're right about Curly and I agree with him. I can't stand my steel or even 6-string in my monitor because I get it sounding the way I want in my amp and in the monitors it sounds like @#%&! I'd forgotten Curly said that but since you mentioned it I remember pretty much the same kind of remarks. As for my "couldn't hear you at all in the first verse", I should have been more specific. I was referring to the common popular arrangements in which the steel doesn't even play at all, or is very much in the background until later in the song, and the way many soundmen think the steel is supposed to be a constant level all through the song. If they don't hear it all the time they think you're not playing it right, "always going up and down in different parts of the song"...yeesh! Even worse when they try to compensate for you and be your leveler. Anyway that's a bit off the subject so sorry about that. Back to the subject, the band I'm in right now mikes everything when we need to, and doesn't when we don't need to. I don't think there's anything amateurish about playing unmic'd if there's no need for it. It's more amateurish to think you must be always mic'd and then have a horrible mix or tone or volume in the mains and I've heard plenty of bands with that problem, not just steel players. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 1:54 pm
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quote:
Kevin, Kevin, Kevin,
"Anyone who doesn't go through the mains and let the PA do the work is just plain stupid".............That's a statement that only an amateur would make!
That is statement that someone who is REALLY in touch with a band's mix would make. Having played in many bands since the early 70's, and having heard many bands since then as well, there is no question that the best way of getting a smooth end-to-end mix of all the instruments is to have everything miked. Every pro act does this, and they obviously do for good reason. Of course if's possible for it to be too loud, same as if there is no miking. And if the guy mixing it is an idiot, then that's bad too. But all too often, lead instruments are lost in the mix because even though the players think it sounds out front on stage, it in fact doesn't cut through. Plus relative balances are often off. Mike everyone, have a competent person checking it out, and the band HAS to sound better than just leaving it up to everyone's on-stage instinct, no matter how many years have been spent doing it. Most all players, after decades of experience, still can not consistently tell whether they are mixed properly out front vis-a-vis the on-stage sound. If you got the option (equipment, people, and patience), PA miking is the ONLY way to go. Period. |
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Chris Walke
From:
St Charles, IL
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 2:15 pm
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I've always thought one of the challenges to being a musician is to work with the stage sound that you happen to get. How good of a performer are you if you can't adapt in adversarial conditions? You can find your ideal tone, or not, each night but the show goes on regardless. It's different EVERY night, all depending on the room, the floor surface, the amount of people in the place, size of the stage, height of the ceiling, what kind of treatment is on the walls (if any), how many monitors on stage, quality of monitors, quality of the soundman (if there is one), etc. Sometimes you can hear yourself great, sometimes you can't. Doesn't matter. You still have to count off the song and play.
To me, just blowing the amp sound off the stage is crazy. The loudest bands I've ever heard are the ones that don't mic their cabinets. That IS what a PA is for, mixing ALL THE INSTRUMENTS TOGETHER in the mains to create a balance of all instruments. Have you ever stood in front of a stage where the mains are off to the front corners of the stage and a guitar amplifier of any kind was in the middle of the stage blowing straight out with no mic? Anyone sitting front row center can't hear the singer, those speakers are off to the side, remember? All that person will be able to hear well is the amp in the center.
I've also never really understood having the amp behind you (if you're miking the cabinet). I put mine on the floor, tilted back, and in slightly to the side in front of me (at about 2 o'clock position), or directly to my side (at about 3 o'clock position). That way, I can hear my amp coming directly up at me, not just flying past the back of my ears (my ears face slightly forward, how 'bout yours?). Keeps me from cranking my amp up too loud because I don't want to tear my own ears off, and keeps the soundman from having to deal with too much stage sound bleeding off the front of the stage, therefore keeping his main mix clearer. |
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Jeff Coffell
From:
Killeen Texas
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 2:28 pm
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Thanks for all the replies guys and gals. Steve Stallings is probably the only steel player I've played with that actually needs to turn up at times. Steve is a true pro and knows what it is like to scream over the top of steels and lead guitars all night. I have hardly ever had a problem with 6 stringers it is usually always the steel player. Don't get me wrong, I Love steel guitar, but enough is enough.
Being the so called band leader, the other guys always complain to me when something is out of line and rightfully so in most cases.
Your right, it never works to tell them to turn down. It seems as though the steel is the only instrument on stage at times. As a matter of fact, most of the time.
The people, or the audience, want to hear the entire band, and not just one instrument. When they are dancing in front of the stage with their finger in there ear, I think that's a sure sign that something's wrong.
I really don't know how to solve this problem. We're all friends and have been for years and firing is just totally out of the ?
More feed back please. Someone out there has the answer to my prayer. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 2:32 pm
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| I think a lot of times the problem has to do with the alcohol level. The higher the blood level, the louder the player gets. Doesn't matter what instrument. (And of course, the higher the blood level, the less receptive to any requests to turn down by more sober (and sorry) voices). |
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Jeff Coffell
From:
Killeen Texas
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 2:37 pm
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Just another thought. I never used to have this problem until the past 10-15 years. You know, I think that the steel conventions could have something to do with the problem of blowing all the others off the stage. At the conventions is the place to do it. the steel is supposed to shine there, but not in the usualy barroom or convention hall where people come to hear 'THE BAND"
Gues it could be a problem of seperating the two. What do ya'll think. I hope I don't get blasted for this. It's just a thought, or maybe a question.
Jeff |
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Jeff Coffell
From:
Killeen Texas
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 2:45 pm
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Jim Good to hear from you. Are you gonna be in Dallas this year? haven't seen a schedule of players yet, guess I need to go to the site and check it out then I'd know.
Back to the problem at hand. The alcohol is really not our problem. The lead guitar player, bass,piano, and myself, don't drink at all. The drummer may have 2 beers a night. The steel player may have 2-3 drinks but sober as a judge. I wish that was the problem, could just make a rule of no drinkin on stage or before showtime or on breaks. That's not a rule that I think you could inforce with a very clear mind. I've never minded the drinkin, Lord knows I've drank my share and probably many others also.
Probably would have a tough time getting players if they couldn't have a drink or two. We are in the bar business in a way ya know.
Thanks
Jeff |
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John Russell
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 18 Feb 2002 2:52 pm
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Jeff: To respond to your original complaint, yes, many steel players play too damn loud. I've been guilty of this a time or two. I always respond to the request to turn down, but I hear about "other steel players" all the time from the various bands I've worked with. Since we love the sound of our instrument, it's easy to assume everyone else loves it too and wants to hear it (loud). Not true.
This must be the thing we all have to master after having learned our precious licks, runs, chords. That is DYNAMICS. Ever notice how nice the steel sounds after it's dropped out for a few bars--assuming the player is competent?
Most local bands don't have two guitars, fiddle, keyboards, etc. to share the load. We steelers get into the habit of filling in where these instruments would on record or in a larger touring band, hence we're in the habit of playing most of the time. With a competent guitar player, one who can play rhythm (in addition to the usual barrage of hot licks), it is possible to edit your playing and even drop out for short periods.
I've had bandleaders fuss at me for dropping out for a few bars, and I've had 'em do the same for playing too many fills and pads. Go figure. As has been mentioned before, every situation is unique, that refers to room acoustics, personalities, and the level of talent on stage.
I think this is one of the more worthwhile topics on this forum. The overall impression of an act is affected by how well the members play together. This may be why bluegrass and acoustic music has more appeal to me these days--there's more focus on the music and less on the tangle of gear used to make it louder.
--JR
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