String through the body vs. not

Jeff Strouse · From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA

For those that have had a chance to experiment with string-through the body guitars (like the pre-war bakelites), is there really a noticable difference in tone? Are any string through the body guitars being made today?

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Jeff,

I don't know if there is a "strings through the body" made today; but I have a "strings through the body" Rick bakelite 8 string and I believe it is post war, because it has the 1&1/4 inch pickup.

It's my understanding that the best sound is from a "strings through the body" design, and with a 1&1/2 inch pickup.

Rick

Andy Alford · Posted 28 May 2004 3:40 am

It depends.I have heard good sounding guitars both ways.

Robbie Bossert · From: WESCOSVILLE,PA,U.S.A.

Jerry Byrd say that he "prefers the string through the body" guitar's tone much better. THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME!!!!!!! ;-)

Robbie Bossert

Russ Young · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

I still recall this thread from about three years ago. Herb Steiner talks about why he believes that the string-through body on a Bakelite Rick may be a bigger determinant of "the Sound" than the size of the pickup ... in his case, he had the right three guitars to make the comparison. (A string-through with a 1-1/2" pickup, a string-through with a 1-1/4" p/u and a tailpiece guitar with a 1-1/4".)

By the way, Chandler lap steels and Loni Specter's "Lapdancers" have string-through bodies. (I don't know if they're still in business, but Sierra lap steels also use the string-through design.)

c c johnson · From: killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.

I probably have a tin ear buy I can'y tell any difference on the miltitude of steels I;ve had with the option, Keep your thumb pick hot!

Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

The difference in tone of a guitar with the string through the body and one without the string through the body must be so slight. I believe the tone of a guitar is determined by the material that the bridge and nut are made of. ie. Aluminum, brass stainless steel etc.

Roger

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

There's a gentleman in Butte, MT., former SGF contributor, that had his Bakelite 8 string for sale some time back; 1 1/2 pkup;
and optional strings thro the body/or on the attached metal plate. He'd be a great one to inquire of.

Jimmie Misenheimer · From: Bloomington, Indiana - U. S. A.

I DON'T KNOW - but I went to a Peavey school 20+ ywars ago. A fellow who designed the model T-40 bass, and T-60 guitar, Chip Todd, told our "class" that on those models they put the strings through the body because the buying public THOUGHT that it made a difference. He then said, "It doesn't, but if they want to think that it does, then so be it". I've never owned a steel of any brand that had this option, so I don't know myself.

Jimmie

Jimmie Misenheimer · From: Bloomington, Indiana - U. S. A.

Hell, not only that, but I don't seem to know how to spell "years" either...

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

It may not make a tinkers on a T-40 Bass or a T-60 guitar, but I can assure you it does on a Rick bakelite. Jerry Bryd confirmed that long ago.

I will go with his ears any day.

Also, there is NO question that the Carter Steels after BCT (Body Contact Technology) sound noticably different than models that do not have it, all else being equal. And it is my understanding most think it sounds better.

carl

Mark Durante · From: St. Pete Beach FL

I agree with Andy, you would think strings thru body would sound better but not always.
Same with neck thru body regular electric (spanish) guitars. Supposedly they should have more sustain but often it is not the case at all.

Jimmie Misenheimer · From: Bloomington, Indiana - U. S. A.

Well Mr. Dixon, you have my complete and undivided attenion. Was it your intention to assure me of something, or Chip Todd? If it was me, please re-read my reply, and you will see that two times, once in bold CAPITAL letters I said that "I didn't know". There were a couple of people before me that seemed to disagree with you - why didn't you assure them of anything? If you want to assure Mr. Todd of something, that is between you and him. I understand that some years ago he left Peavey, and went to Fender. Though we've never met, I have a great deal of respect for you stemming from things that you have written here. I was just "passing along" something that I heard someone "in the know" say. I hope sir, that you understand this reply, and that you and I understand each other.

Jimmie

Jeff Strouse · From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA

Although I haven't had a chance to test drive one myself, the string thru design seems to be preferred with many players. The design (to me) is intriguing, because like Chas points out, it is integrated in the body of the guitar itself.

I appreciate the comments from all.

Jimme, Carl meant no offense...he is simply adding to this thread from his vast experience with steels.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

My father was Mr Dixon. I am just plain ole carl.

I was directing my comments to the chap who told you that in a class. I got my info from Jerry Byrd who said, the metal tail piece addition for attaching the strings (on later models) did not give as good a sound as the models where the strings came up thru the body.

Incidently, Mr Hall who bought Rickenbacher vehemently claimed that it made no difference in the sound. Again, I must go along with Jerry's ears.

No offense was meant to you or to Chip. I am sad you took it that way. I also qualified it by saying I do not know about the basses or guitars. Only the Rick bakelites and Carter PSG's with BCT.

carl

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I have been playing both string through and a tailpiece Rick bakelites.
They both sound amazing. I have not noticed anything negative about the tailpiece one.

Bob

Jimmie Misenheimer · From: Bloomington, Indiana - U. S. A.

Carl, I now understand. Thank you sir...

Jimmie

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I am a firm believer that string through is the way to go and here are a couple of reasons:
1 It sounds better to me.
2 As Carl stated, Jerry Byrd thinks the same (and many more).
3 String through makes sense and if you don't believe that it sounds better, it's still a solid way to attach strings, and it's cheap too.
4 While there have been those who will argue it makes no difference, I have yet to hear one clearly stating that non-string through definately sounds better.

.. J-D.

[This message was edited by J D Sauser on 01 June 2004 at 03:52 AM.]

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

The matter of sound with a string through the body or not, is a matter of how well the strings are receiving vibrations from the body of a guitar. Body tone provides it's character to pickups through the strings (and through the pickup mounting if the pickup is mounted solidly to the body), and helps sustain proportional to a body's liveliness and how well that tone is conducted into the strings. Strings mounted through the body will definitley make the most solid contact with the body; But that's not the end of the story. Due to many other contributing factors, all of which I obviously cannot list here, a guitar with strings ran through a body can sound inferior to a better made and/or set-up guitar that doesn't have strings ran through the body. The nut and tuners contribute to how much body sound will be conducted into the strings. Guitars with strings NOT run through the body can have a very similar effect of being run through the body if the string rooting / receiving device conducts the body sound into the strings well ...usually by good solid contact with the body, ...and usually the larger contact area the better. The resonance of the strings receiver and the characters of the bridge can influence a guitar's sound. The tones from many factors, running around on the strings, will effect how a guitar sounds.

Some examples: Good string through the body Telecasters sound great not just because the strings run through the body. The older Teles with the side-walled bridge / pickup plate makes good and broad contact with the body AND has a resonance that conducts into the bridge saddles and also contributes to the great round metallic sound of an old Telecaster. Put allot of work into a Tele's nut, and clean and properly lubricate the tuners and it will sound even better. I have a process of making a removeable fully contacting epoxy filler for tele bridge plates and for a bolt on neck pocket that fills in every tiny bit of open spaces in order to conduct sound better in the neck / body / strings sound loop. A Tele made from a particularly good sounding wood will also make it sound even better ....but then the importance of conducting that sound into the strings brings us right back to getting it's sound into the strings and sound loop. A Telecaster with a flat plate with strings not run through the body can sound better than one with the side-walled plate and strings through the body, IF the other factors are done well on the flat plate Tele while not done on the string-through body Tele. Do the work on both guitars and the thru-body / side-walled plate Tele WILL sound better IMHO (notwithstanding some really beat up old Tele's I've run across that just sound killer without all that special attention ...which is due in large part to it's wood and it's parts seating in good contact with the sound loop!). Another example is George Piburn's GeorgeBoard Steels whose receiver and body is cut with a CNC machine for extremely solid contact with the body ....and the receiver itself picks up sound very good, plus their brass bridge and nut also contribute to conducting the sound from his selected tone woods (check out the surface area contact between the nut and bridge bosses!). You can bet that old Fender Steels' tuning cups also contribute to their sound, ...and their string rooting to their expansive pickup / receiver plate also contributes to their distinct sound.

But it should not be overlooked that other string rooting schemes have their own distint sounds as well that also sound good, just different. A good archtop or other guitar with a trapeze tailpiece can sound very good if the bridge is also well planted, isolates overtones from behind the bridge, and transfers the body sound into the strings. The difference in sound of a trapeze 335 style guitar will be different than the same style guitar that uses a stop tailpiece and bridge that are screwed hard into the body's sound block; And different still from a Les Paul Jr. that uses a stop piece for both the bridge and string receiver that's bolted massively into the body (and picks up the body tone like gangbusters due to such solid contact with the body sound!). A Danelectro Convertible get's it's "dobro"-like "prangy" jangle because it's bridge is otherwise a terrible conductor of body sound, and it's fret for a saddle doesn't isoloate the bridge from those "prangy" tones between the bridge and trapeze ...plus the fret saddle buzzes a little bit due to the shallow angle back to the trapeze; BUT it is a cool and quite famous sound.

Now on the other extreme take a look at most Electromuse Steels whose bridge and string receivers are stamped into it's steel pickup / controls cavity plate. That plate sits on top of a rather large cavity routed in the wood and the plate and bridge don't make good contact with the body ...and the bridge is not solid but stamped broadly into the plate. So guess where the distinct Electromuse sound (sort-of slightly resonator metallic sounding) comes from? It comes from the resonance of most of that plate covering air and not the body. The body tone in their output signal is quite distant in their tone depth. They don't sustain well either ...unless you get into a speaker field strong enough to excite the body and drive it's sound into the plate and thus into the strings. Later model Magnatones took a similar approach with a noticeable loss in tone and sustain by that plate covering so much cavity air.

Phase cancellation acting between body tones in the strings and the pickup actually moving up and down with body vibration is another consideration. A bit too technical / lengthy and a bit off-subject to get into here, but worthy of reading up on if a person is designing their own Steel.

If I had the choice of running strings through a body or not, ...I would run the strings through the body if BODY tone was the object.

Aloha,
DT~

Bob Stone · From: Gainesville, FL, USA

Thanks Danny. As one might suspect the answer is complex and, in the end, subjective.

I appreciate all the thought and experimentation you have put into this subject.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Where does this leave the Stringmaster ?
As I understand the question it's NOT specific about Bakelite Ricks, but guitars in general.
Baz

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basilh · From: United Kingdom

To follow on... My 1948 D-16 Rick is a 'tailpiece' model and my 47 Magnatone/Leilani is 'Strings Through' so is my 1937 Dickerson. My 1957 Fender Deluxe 8 (Stringmaster) is a fixed plate on the top of the guitar. My 1937 Epiphone Electra has an on body 'Gibson' style tailpiece.. They all have their differences .. but they all have their own characteristic sound 'As would be expected'.
It's all subjective as to which is best.. sustainwise the cheap Magnatone/Leilani is the best.. the best 'Body' or fullness is the Epiphone.
Baz

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