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Topic: Why not C7 or C9 ? |
Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 16 May 2004 9:50 pm |
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I am fortunate that I work with two different groups;one is straight country (I play pedal steel with them) and the other group is primarily rhythm & blues. With the rhythm & blues band I get to play a lot of non-pedal steel. Recently I took on a new student who knows nothing about music,except that he likes blues. This caused me to re-think what tuning to start him out on. I could easily teach him C6 or E7,which are common,but then I thought why not try C7 with a ninth on top? This has to be a 6-string tuning. The tuning I propose is,hi to lo D C A# G E C. This makes a good,rich sounding,"strum chord" tuning, like E7 but also yields a nice minor with strings D A# & G. I know some tunings that are more advanced,but this one really caught my ear as being good for a beginner who wants to play blues. All positive feedback and comments are welcome.
~~W.C.~~[This message was edited by Wayne Cox on 16 May 2004 at 11:01 PM.] |
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Ron Bednar
From:
Rancho Cordova, California, USA
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Posted 16 May 2004 10:22 pm
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I'm still on the "bunnyhill" myself so take this with a grain of whatever. But I think open D (D,A,D,F#,A,D) might be a stronger tuning for blues.
You have the two octave D's for alternating bass, with the D up there on the first string for melody. Slants are easy with it. It's a full rich sounding chord when hit open. With heavier strings you get a real gutsy growl. Seems hard to beat for blues.
[This message was edited by Ron Bednar on 16 May 2004 at 11:23 PM.] |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 17 May 2004 9:16 am
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In the key of C, the note would be called Bb, not A#. A nit, I know, but C7 flats the 7th tone - it doesn't raise the 6th.
I don't think it's a good idea to start a beginner with an experimental tuning.
------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 17 May 2004 at 10:17 AM.] |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 17 May 2004 9:50 am
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| If he already plays guitar, start him on an E major tuning. EBG#EBE. That way he will already know the fretboard and will have good open strings for hammer ons and pulloffs. Also, E is probably the most common blues band key. The other one is A, which also works well on this tuning. He will be able to strum power chords on the bottom and play lead stuff on the top strings. For minors, he has to learn to slant, or tune the G# down a half step - not that hard to do between songs. Another option is to use a modal tuning, EBEBEB. This is very powerful for blues. You can strum it or play octaves, and minor keys work as well as majors. |
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Dylan Schorer
From:
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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Posted 17 May 2004 4:59 pm
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I like the idea of C7 or C9. In fact, it prompted me to experiment with this C9 variation on C6: C E G Bb C D. (C6 with the 3rd string raised a half step, and first string lowered a whole step.
I agree, though, I wouldn't recommend that you start a beginner with an experimental, non-standard tuning. C6 is a good starting point, or open E or D would be great for blues.
If you don't want to deal with slants for the minors in E or D, just play small pieces of the chords. For example, in D tuning (DADF#AD), to hint at a Bm play strings 4,3, or 3,1 at the 12th fret, or play strings 5,3 or 3,2 at the 5th fret. I think of the Bm notes at the 12th fret as the relative minor of the D chord at that fret, and I relate the notes at the 5th fret as the iii-minor of the G chord at that fret. |
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Michael Devito
From:
Montclair, NJ, USA
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Posted 17 May 2004 5:40 pm
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| I'm pretty much just starting myself, play 6 string lap in open D, open E and a bit with C#m. Open D and E have the same string to string relationships, but open D is actually my preference for playing with others. It gives me the full E chord two frets up from the nut. I can slide into it in that low position and do pulloffs or pick open then bar, whereas if I'm in open E I have to play further up the neck. I also love the way songs in F sound with open D. |
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 17 May 2004 6:50 pm
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b0b, if you can convince my tuner that there is a difference in A# & Bb I'll gladly change my terminology. I admit I have acquired a bad habit (technically speaking) of labeling a flatted whole tone a "b" if I am descending,and I label a raised whole note/tone a "#" if I am ascending a scale. However, you are right, it is a nit,because I have a right to ascend or descend anytime I please. I really didn't mean to confuse anyone with sloppy notation,but during a performance does anyone really care if it is a Bb or an A#? It is a well known fact that our current system of music notation is antiquated,and that better systems do exist. But, switching to a new system would be kind of like the switch to the metric system. thanks to the switch,we now have twice as many different kinds of wrenches to do mechanic work with,and it costs a mechanic twice as much. I guess what I'm saying is,"Sometimes it is better to leave well enough alone!".
~~W.C.~~ |
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 17 May 2004 9:33 pm
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I would recommend E7 like this:
E
B
G#
D
B
E
If you want to keep it close to C6(which I assume is why you thought to try a C7), I would recommend an A7 like this:
E
C#
A
G
E
A
It only takes dropping the second string down to C and pulling the 6th string up to C to make it C6. The reason I have the 6th string at A instead of C#, is because that way you keep that low down, dirty power chord, though I prefer the C# for smoother Hawaiian playing.
CS |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 18 May 2004 2:42 am
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| I agree that you'll do a disservice to a beginner to ignore the fundamental tunings. A lot of the charm of steel guitar is in the way that players can experiment, tinker and put their own individual stamp on their music. All steel players are kind of back yard Thomas Edisons by necessity; we're playing a guitar with one, slippery finger essentially. Nevertheless, there are good reasons why the standard tunings evolved after a whole lot of experimentation and like any discipline, in order to experiment intelligently one needs to understand the fundamentals. Start with D or E tuning, add a 7th if you want then C6th or A6th. When those tunings are understood, then the sky's the limit. [This message was edited by Andy Volk on 18 May 2004 at 03:43 AM.] |
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 18 May 2004 10:49 pm
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Hey Andy, nice book! I just got it today, and I've barely put it down.
Chris |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 19 May 2004 2:14 am
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Thanks, Chris! The reviewer in Vintage Guitar totally missed the point of the book so I'll take all the good reviews I can get this week.  |
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John Kavanagh
From:
Kentville, Nova Scotia, Canada * R.I.P.
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Posted 20 May 2004 7:24 am
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I think there's a lot to be said for this kind of tuning for someone who wants to start with blues. It's more flexible than a straight major or 7th tuning: Having the 9th, the 7th, and a minor chord right there is going to make him think and play more sophisticated stuff right away. If he wants to work with C6 at some point he'll only change 2 strings. The 6th tuning is maybe more universal, but for a beginner it's hard to avoid sounding Hawaiian all the time.
He is heading for confusion down the road if you tell him there's an "A#" in a C7 chord. Give him a student-level explanation ("it says A# on the tuner, but it depends on the context") and he'll figure it out when he needs to. We should be smarter than our tuners.[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 20 May 2004 at 08:27 AM.] |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 21 May 2004 7:31 pm
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| C7 has the dominant 7th tone of the scale, not the augmented 6th. The 6th tone (A) remains unaltered in the scale. |
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 22 May 2004 9:31 am
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For some reason, my computer will not let me edit my post...so I want to say that my reply to b0b's comment came across a bit more caustic than I intended it to. b0b, I always respect your comments and value your knowledge and opinions. I sincerely apologize if my reply was offensive! I really did try to correct it,but my computer wouldn't cooperate. Sorry!
~~W.C.~~ |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 23 May 2004 9:51 am
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No offense was taken, Wayne.
Also, from a just intonation standpoint, A# and Bb are indeed two different notes. A# is a lower pitch than Bb. They are enharmonic on a piano, but that shouldn't stop us from tuning our steel guitars correctly!
A# is the 16/9 ratio, properly tuned to 996.1 cents above C.
Equal temperment A#/Bb is 1000 cents above C.
Bb is the 9/5 ratio, 1017.6 cents above C. Big difference!
I always tune the 7th note sharp by a good margin. It just sounds better.
------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 24 May 2004 5:55 am
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ANDY & CHRIS,I think the A7 might be the better solution,but I admit I never would have considered it a "standard" tuning either.
Nevertheless,I see your reasoning concerning a later transition to an even more commomly used tuning,such as C6. My young student is a fine young African American who is about 19 years old and only has a 6-string lap steel to learn on. I really don't forsee him getting into western swing or Hawaiian later on...but then,you never know! I am trying to keep my mind as open as his! Thanks to everyone for the suggestions!
~~W.C.~~[This message was edited by Wayne Cox on 24 May 2004 at 06:59 AM.] |
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 24 May 2004 6:12 am
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Right on, b0b,I know you are right because I also have to tune my 7ths at least 5cents sharp. My ear just will not accept less. Also,on the E9 tuning,the D string seems to do just fine (tuned slightly sharp) with pedals A & B depressed to get the Maj7. In my ear it does not create a tuning conflict.
Might be a good topic for another thread!
~~W.C.~~ |
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