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Topic: Tube Amp for steel? |
Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 13 Mar 2001 9:03 pm |
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I don't really know that much about amps, but from what I've read, the tube vs. solid state question depends on whether you want a clean sound or an "overdriven sound."
At lower power settings, you will get a clean sound from both the solid state and the tube amp. When you start to "overdrive" the amp, the tube amp often produces a warmer-sounding "distortion" than the solid state amp.
From my limited personal experience, a really good solid state amp is just as good or better than a tube amp because you can get just as good or better sound from a solid state amp, while avoiding the headaches traditionally associated with tube amps. It seems most of the ones who really want the tube amps are guitar players who want a bit of distortion or overdrive sound. When it comes to clean sound a good solid state amp should be just as good or better than a tube amp.
Just my $0.02 worth. |
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Blake Hawkins
From:
Florida
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 5:46 am
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Jeff, check the Forum archives. Both Carl Dixon and Jack Stoner have written extensively on adjusting the NV 400 in previous threads.
Also check the current "Amp Settings" thread in the Electronics section of the Forum.
Blake[This message was edited by Blake Hawkins on 14 March 2001 at 05:50 AM.] |
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David Biagini
From:
San Jose, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 7:17 am
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| I prefer tube amps. The tone has more depth and the amp responds better to all your picking nuances. |
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Ally
From:
Edinburgh, UK
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 7:38 am
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| I use a Fender Twin for pedal steel, and the sound is superb. Very clean and open. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 7:42 am
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For the most part solid state amps sound like dry dog turds compared with tube amps. Although there are some great solid state amps out there.
I play all the time and constantly check out different amps in studios and gigs. Overall tube amps have a deeper response and a richer tone. Anybody that says that steel players use SS amps so they can get a clean sound is somewhat naive. Tube amps can get a great clean sound.
Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 14 March 2001 at 07:50 AM.] |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 8:31 am
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Who ever said psg players use SS amps to get a cleaner sound? I've never heard anyone say that -- 'course I haven't talked with that many people about the subject. I agree that you can get a fantastic clean sound with a tube amp. You can also get a fantastic clean sound with a solid state amp.
If you think a tube amp sounds better . . . cool. There are many people, including countless professionals, who think a good SS amp sounds better. I'm not arguing about which one sounds better. If somebody wants to spend two or three times as much money just to have a tube amp, plus lugging around the extra weight and putting up with the maintenance of a tube amp . . . . .cool. But I wonder who's really the naive one here.
Anyone who makes a blanket statement that SS amps sound like dry dog turds has his head up his @$$
Just kidding . . . . . [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 14 March 2001 at 09:08 AM.] |
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Brandin
From:
Newport Beach CA. USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 9:12 am
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| Tom, stick with that solid state stuff, and leave the tube amps for those of us that appreciate good sound. |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 9:28 am
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| OK Brandin, whatever you say. [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 14 March 2001 at 09:29 AM.] |
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Bob Kagy
From:
Lafayette, CO USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 10:10 am
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| Quote: |
| For the most part solid state amps sound like dry dog turds compared with tube amps. |
I love it. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 11:02 am
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My Emmons sounded like "crap" on my old reliable 4x10 Fender Bassman that I'd used for years. I chanced to play thro' and old '65 Fender Tw-12" reverb and "THAT WAS the sound I've searched for, for many years".
I was encouraged however, by the owner, to get a Peavy Session 400; I did. A great amp but NOT THE SOUND I've longed to hear once again.I later added a Peavy LA-400 12", and it was closer to the sound I wanted but still not it. I now use those two amps with my ProFex and I have a lot of GREAT SOUNDS...but still not that great OLD TUBE sound of that Fender tw-12 reverb. I recently acquired the Peavy re-issue of that old Fender amp. It didn't sound anywhere NEAR......what I had envisioned. The closest I've been able to get to what I want, is to set "Saturation" at a fairly high level, on the LA-400. It seems to provide me with that overdrive of a tube amp. I'm not a professional and am nowhere near as knowledgeable as most of these Forumites but contribute this in good faith that it might lend some value to the original question asked. The "sound" you want to hear is EVERYTHING. Settle for nothing less!
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 Ray Montee-email: mraymond4@qwest.net
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Mike Bagwell
From:
Greenville, SC, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 12:07 pm
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I love tube amps, I have a real 59 twin and a 66 Twin with JBL's. Ive also used a tube pre amp and Mcintosh power amps. MC60 and MC275. I also have some good solid state amps, peavey, Evans and Sho Bud. I consider most of these amps an indulgence. A more accurate phrase would be "time spent playing with amps when I should be playing my guitar".Tube amps are my favorite, mostly because of the coolness factor and I dig the tone when Im playing around the house plus, I love looking at them.
This being said the best tone Ive ever heard in a live setting was achived with solid state amps. The players were Buddy Emmons and Lloyd Green. These guys had tone that made the hair stand up on my arms and gave me cold chills. Not a dry dog turd all night.
One type of amp does not sound better or worse than the other, just a little different.Oh sure I can tell the difference in a twin and a session 400 in my music room , but go to a loud live gig and these differences become obscure the to the
audience .Under these situations how the amp is voiced ie. how the amps eq works with your particular guitar and set of ears is more important than the type of output stage. For example I could not hear any change in Greg Leisz's tone when he went from Twins to Evans amps. Did he suck thru the Evans and Im just not hip enought to hear it? I think he hears a certian tone in his head and thru eq and slight techniqe adjustments is able to make most any guitar and amp setup really sing.
Im probably the biggest tube nut on the forum,Ive foolin with this stuff for 25 years.I wish you could just plug into a good tube amp and have your live tone improve 50to 100%, but it just ain't so.
Red Rhodes( groove tubes head tube guru and friend of Leo Fender) sumed it up best when when I asked what kind of amp he used for live playing, he said " Man I use a Session 400 its just easier to get the tone I like"
Mike
[This message was edited by Mike Bagwell on 14 March 2001 at 12:11 PM.] |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 12:46 pm
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I'm moving this to the Electronics forum.
Personally, I'm a big fan of Fender amplifiers. Some of the new reissues can sound really nice with steel guitar.
Last week I was playing through my Deluxe Reverb and it developed a really annoying squeal (probably a bad tube). I was at a rehearsal space (Lennon Studios in San Francisco) with a rental/music store attached, so I borrowed an old red knob Fender 185 for the rest of the practice. I could not get a good sound out of that amp no matter what.
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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars
[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 14 March 2001 at 04:31 PM.] |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 2:54 pm
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What exactly does a 'dry dog turd' sound like? Should I be worried that I don't know?
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bterry.home.netcom.com
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Tele
From:
Andy W. - Wolfenbuettel, Germany
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 3:23 pm
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To me the best sound for Pedal Steel comes out of a Fender Twin Reverb with either 2x12" D120For 1x15" D130F JBLs...I even put them in my 59 Twin.
Nut then again....I heard some awesome sounds coming out of a Peavey SS amp...but not played by me 
Andy
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1957 Sho~Bud D-8:1961 Sho~Bud D-9:1962 Sho~Bud D-10:1966 Sho~Bud D-10 : Bigsby T-8
My guitars &s
ShoBud Gallery
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Steve Feldman
From:
Central MA USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 6:16 pm
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Tom said: quote:
I don't really know that much about amps, but from what I've read, the tube vs. solid state question depends on whether you want a clean sound or an "overdriven sound."
At lower power settings, you will get a clean sound from both the solid state and the tube amp. When you start to "overdrive" the amp, the tube amp often produces a warmer-sounding "distortion" than the solid state amp.
Man, I think you ought to go get some time in on some tube amps there, Tom. I have a Fender Vibrasonic and a stereo rack system with a Tubeworks tube preamp and a VHT tube power amp. I can drive either one of these things so loud that they'll make your teeth bleed - with no distortion, and with tone that I wouldn't trade for a boatload of SS amps. This is, of course, just my personal preference, but I think you've missed the mark when you suggest that tube amps = overdriven sound. Doesn't have to be. And I'm not a guitar player, either.
[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 14 March 2001 at 06:19 PM.] |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 7:05 pm
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Steve, like I said, my comments were based mostly on what I've read. I understand what you're saying, but that's really not what I meant.
Let me try again. What I meant to say was, if you have any amount of distortion in your amp signal, then all the experts seem to agree that the tube amp wins in the tone department, hands down.
Maybe you're right -- I should go out and try a bunch of different amps and do some comparisons on my own.
All I am trying to say is that, to address the original post here, it's not absolutely necessarily true that a tube amp always sounds better than a solid state amp. Obviously there are quite a few people who like the sound of tube amps a lot better than solid state amps. Maybe if I had the opportunity to try some different amps out, I would say the same thing.
However, I have read several articles that said basically, that when you scientifically analyze the pure, undistorted sound characteristics of a tube amp and a solid state amp, you won't find any difference at all when you compare the two. That is, the sound wave looks exactly the same for both amps. However, when you start to get the slightest amount of anomally in the amp signal (which may even be undetectable to the ear), you will get a much better, warmer, fuller, richer sound from a tube amp. This may account for the fact that some swear that the tube amp has such rich overtones. Even at mid-level volumes you may get some slight amount of anomallies (distortion) in the signal which may create the warmer sounding overtones in a tube amp. [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 14 March 2001 at 07:07 PM.] |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 7:07 pm
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I'v egot a modified ('Dumblized') 66 Showman, and you can make that thing distort, but not at a reasonable country band volume. I also have a VHT 2/90/2 power amp, and by the time you hear power amp distortion from that puppy, you won't have any hearing anymore.
I love tube amps myself. I personally think the tube power amp stage is the most important part of that tube sound.
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www.tyacktunes.com |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 14 Mar 2001 7:11 pm
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| When I say "distortion" I don't mean wild, feed-back, Jimi Hendrix stuff -- I mean when the signal starts to distort. That is, when the signal starts to change from a perfect sine wave and develop anomallies or whatever you want to call the changes that occur to the signal. |
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Sage
From:
Boulder, Colorado
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Posted 15 Mar 2001 6:26 am
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The only musical instrument that can generate a sine wave is a synthesizer. All other instruments have extremely complex waveforms filled with harmonic overtones. The distinctive tone you hear from various instruments comes from the way the vibrating medium interacts with the physical makeup of the instrument. This produces a distinctive set of harmonic overtones within every nominal note, regardless of pitch. As to how that interacts with transistors and tubes- I'll leave that up to the serious honchos on this topic...
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T. Sage Harmos
Musical Instruments
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2001 7:20 am
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To add to Sages post, here is an example. When the note C(5) is played the audible harmonic (overtone) series of frequencies being sounded is:
C(5) - 1st harmonic (Fundamental)
C(6) - 2nd harmonic
G(6) - 3rd harmonic
C(7) - 4th harmonic
E(7) - 5th harmonic
G(7) - 6th harmonic
Bb(7)- 7th harmonic
C( - 8th harmonic
D(- 9th harmonic
The timbre of a musical instrument is a function of which harmonics of the series are emphasized.
Tube amps tend to emphasize the "even" harmonics when overdriven, which as you can see, are made up of mostly octaves (and one 5th). This gives a smooth rich sound to the note.
Solid state amps tend to emphasize the "odd" harmonics when overdriven. These include the 5th, 3rd, b7th and 2nd. This produces a harsher sound.
This is why people say you play the instrument And the amp.[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 15 March 2001 at 08:14 AM.] [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 29 March 2001 at 08:43 AM.] |
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Geoff Brown
From:
Nashvegas
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Posted 15 Mar 2001 11:13 am
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| I once bought a Fender Twin that had MOSFETS. On paper, MOSFETS were supposedly identical to tubes in the way they process a signal, but not in that amp...ugh. I have a Fender Blues Deluxe that I like. It's basically just a Bassman w/ a master volume. I run a POD 2.2 into the amp stage, bypassing the preamp, and get some nice sounds with the clean settings. Sounds nice with a little dirt as well. Also sounds nice w/o the POD. Jeffstro, I would think that you could find one of those someplace used and it wouldn't cost you too much. Not a bad place to start to get you into a tube amp. |
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Steve Feldman
From:
Central MA USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2001 2:57 pm
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| I have a Blues DeLuxe myself, and while I LOVE the tone coming out of that rascal, I personally wouldn't recomments it for PSG. It breaks up too easily. My Vibrasonic on the other hand.....Just my NSH $0.02. |
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Ricky Littleton
From:
Steely-Eyed Missile Man from Cocoa Beach, Florida USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2001 3:09 pm
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Tube amp's by far have a warmer tone. BUT...that comes with a price in terms of weight. Tubes can be had that have plenty of dynamic range (head room) so that you stay in the linear range during play so that distortion is minimal. I personally believe tube amps have much less "hiss" than a transistor amp simply because of the mechanism of operation- tubes are voltage controlled as opposed to transistors being a current-based device.
Choose your tubes carefully, and shy away from cheap off-brands (specifically Yugoslavian-built tubes).
Just my opinion.
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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd
Alesis Microverb
Dan-Echo, E-Bow
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Wayne Wallett
From:
Shermans Dale, PA USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 15 Mar 2001 5:41 pm
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From been there... done that for 40 years. I have owned Fender Vibrosonic, Super Reverb W/15 JBL, Fender Blues Deluxe reissue w/15 JBL replacement, PV Nashville 400, Webb, and (2) Evans amps.
One Evans in 80s was a real dog, one I have now is great. Webb is great, and for those jobs which don't require moving the rear wall the Fender Blues Deluxe is sweet.
I cut a CD 6 months ago with Evans run direct into board and I defy anyone to tell me its a solid state by listening to it. Personal preference but I say both are good...don't care much for Peaveys unless reworked though. later...tater...
Wayne
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Dave Van Allen
From:
Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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Posted 15 Mar 2001 7:46 pm
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it all depends on what YOU want to hear coming out of YOUR amp. Whatever amp gives YOU THAT, USE IT.
I have indeed heard great sound from great players using SS amps.
But for what I want to hear coming off my corner of the stage it's Fender Tube Amplification
disclaimer: this is a picture of Lloyd Green "back in the day", not me. It also shows him using an approx. 1968 Fender Twin Reverb Amp with what appears to be a JBL 15" speaker in it (which is remarkably like my own TR). My understanding is that Mr Green used an amp similar to this to record "Live at Panther Hall" with Mr Charlie Pride. As far as I know Mr Green has not used an amp like this recently, yet somehow he still sounds remarkably like Lloyd Green. I however, although using an amp like the one pictured above, most assuredly do NOT sound like Lloyd Green. Although I do get a sound that I love to hear coming from my side of the stage, a sound that inspires me to try things I might otherwise not, however foolhardy it may turn out...
[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 20 March 2001 at 11:19 AM.] |
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