question for songwriters

Dayna Wills · From: Sacramento, CA (deceased)

I just read a book by Buddy Killen who used to own Tree Publishing Co. back in the 50's & 60's he used to get demos with just a singer and a guitar, maybe a piano. he had "ears" and could "hear" an arrangement to compliment the song. Over the years I have gone into the studio and recorded a demo only to have someone tell me that I need a full blown arrangement, like a horn section and 4 backup singers, or they say the music is dated, or they can't hear a Western Swing song as a "Country" song.(Just take out the fiddle, the sax, and the steel, duh) Any ideas about how to go about pitching a song in these "oh so commercial" days? I wish I could find someone with "Ears".....

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erik · Posted 5 Nov 2006 6:42 am

I am NOT a published songwriter but I find this topic interesting as I have read this before. To me, it makes no sense to require a full orchestrated arrangement to hear a hit. But apparently, in Nashville time is money and hearing how it will sound finished is important. Then again there are plenty of remade songs picked off of singer/songwriters albums which would require rearrangement by a new producer.

Matt Dawson · From: Luxembourg, Europe

Without exception every single song of mine thats ever been covered, I first did a demo that copied the style of the singer I was trying to pitch it to - even to the point of getting a 'soundalike' singer in. Many 'producers' over here don't seem to be able to function without this kind of help!
Matt

Stephan Miller · From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA

Dayna, I have little experience in pitching songs commercially, so what I have to suggest may not be acceptable within whatever "system" exists between songwriters & music publishers. But it seems like you might be able to have it both ways here-- in other words, have the demo showcase your song both stripped-down and with full arrangement. Possible ways to get this done are 1) minimal version and full version back to back on the same demo... 2) single version, with stripped-down arrangement for intro/1st verse/1st chorus followed by the rest of the song done in the kind of full arrangement that you feel would be successful...3) single version with full stereo arrangement, set up so that a stripped-down take can be heard by panning either hard right or hard left.

Any of these approaches would give you a chance to fill out the song in a way that appeals to you, yet would allow the simple core of the tune to be heard so that alternate approaches could more easily be "heard" by others.

Don't know if any of this would work for you at all..... maybe "that's just not the way things are done?"

--Steve

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Gene H. Brown · From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada

I have had several of my songs published and recorded, and a couple of them on major labels.
The one thing I learned from these experiences were to pitch the song directly to the Artist you had in mind for doing the song. Nine times out of Ten, the song never makes it to the Artist to listen to, but if you can get 5 minutes alone with the Artist and get their attention, if it's a fair song and they like it, they will cut it, that worked for me.
Gene

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

[This message was edited by Gene H. Brown on 05 November 2006 at 01:16 PM.]

Dayna Wills · From: Sacramento, CA (deceased)

Thanks, for the input. The last time I spoke with an artist's "people" they said they wouldn't listen to anything that wasn't submitted through a publisher and/or an entertainment attorney. I even had an inside track, but the insider was told that he couldn't pitch my song to the artist because the artist wasn't allowed to hear "outside" material. Had to go through the proper channels. OH! and by the way, when I said to take out the steel, I was thinking of a WS song that I had pitched to a big promoter of country artists, and the song was produced by Tom Morrell. I meant that the WS tuning perhaps didn't have the "sound" of a country song to their ears. The person just said WS wouldn't sell.
I thought, well, it doesn't have to be a WS style song. It would have made a perfectly good ten stepper and I have been told that there has even been a dance made up for it. so....who knows?

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Alan Rudd · From: Ardmore, Oklahoma

I am actively pitching right now and have a lot of full blown demos, but my songplugger tells me it is okay, many of these guys are wanting guitar/ vocal or keyboard/ vocal demos. I guess some of them still have an imagination and an ear to produce the song to their own taste. I use to work through Gatlin Bros. publishing company and all my demos were paid for, but you basically give up the publishing in that case. If you want to hold publishing and get the songs plugged, you usually give up half the publishing to the plugger, or in some cases, only 25%.

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

Visit TAXI

Terry

erik · Posted 5 Nov 2006 6:32 pm

I think the reason artists are protected from unsolicited material is to avoid lawsuits or accusations about a song...which is understandable.

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-johnson

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Also, everyone in the "loop" gets a kickback somewhere along the way. The minute they use someone outside of their "loop" (like a writer pitching their own songs), someone's (a publisher is) losing their kickback, and that makes business people very upset.

I guess I should have asked upfront, Dayna...

What is it exactly that you want? Do you want to write generic hit songs for someone else, or do you want to have your own individual singing/writing recognized and maybe even popularized?

In other words, do you want to just be famous and make lots of money? Or would you rather make your own lasting, indelible mark on the music world...have your own "legacy", so to speak - but probably make far less money?

Simply, what's your motivation?

Dayna Wills · From: Sacramento, CA (deceased)

What's my motivation? In the beginning, I wanted to be a star. Due to circumstances beyond my control, that didn't happen. Then I just wanted to make a living as a singer. I always liked the band scene and I have always been a team player. Then I went to work with a group and they all wrote their own songs, so I took a shot at it. Over the years I have written a few that I think have merit, and I would like to see one recorded by a major artist before I d-i-e!
At 57, I don't have time to be another Cindy Walker. But I would like to see one of my babies fly.

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John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

Erik is right about the artist not wanted to be in direct contact with a writer they don't know--there are way too many frivolous lawsuits by would-be writers claiming to have given an idea at that meeting etc.

As for more produced demos--there are so many songs being pitched these days, and in many instances the quality level in the people doing the initial screening has become so low that unless it "sounds" like it hit, it may get rejected right off the bat. Of course, a good producer or song pitcher can hear a great song from a guitar/vocal demo, but it may gothrough many hands before it hits them...

Best of luck to you

Chuck Cusimano · From: Weatherford, Texas, USA

My belief is: A good song is a good song, with, or without a full blown demo. The HARD part is getting it listend to. I don't just mean it's playing in the background, while the producer is calling in a pizza, I mean where he actually is LISTENING TO your creation. I heard it said one time, if good songs are a dime a dozen, then a HIT song is $3.95 ! Most of the big artists, or "Stars" won't take the time to listen to a song from a known songwriter, let alone an un-known songwriter. They tell you to send it through the propper channels, and a lot of the time, a song the "Star" would pick will never reach his, or her ears, until someone else cuts it, and it becomes a hit. It gets turned down by someone other than the person who would sing it.

One thing I'd personally like to se is MORE RECOGNITION for songwriters, because without a good (GREAT) song, the singer is just walking in a world while everyone else is driving.

I deal mostly with folks who know me, but they accept demos with just my vocal, and a guitar. But I will send what ever demo I have if someone asks for a demo.
In some cases,if I have a full blown demo, I think it tends to influence their creativity, and after all, I like it when an artist takes my song and makes it thier own. (I don't mean changing the lyrics, or Melody) That's proof to me that they can put their emotion into it. (example, Billy Keeble singing "When she Does Me right". He didn't want to record it, because he said he couldn't make it sound like my cut, or Billy Martin's cut. I told him to make it his song, and I think he did an excelent job.)

Anyway, Dana write your songs, and make your demo's and get them into the hands of people who will listen to them honestly. Best of luck to you! Chuck Cusimano

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

When "producer ears" comes up, I always remember this story:
One of my studio clients had an inside track to a top-level Nashville manager/producer, (Initials J.S. for those whowant to guess) with a string of hits and the claim that he "didn't need a full-blown demo, he could hear a hit from a guitar-or-piano/ vocal demo.
My client had pitched him a song he recorded into a cassette player sitting on his bed, and was turned down with an "I just don't hear anything here". Client brought it into my studio where we copied the demo exactly with no changes to arrangement, key, or structure, just adding drums, bass, stereo acoustic, steel guitar, and backup vocals.
He got a deal with it at another company, and when the first Mr. Ears hear the demo made here, he screamed, "Why didn't you bring this to me? I could have cut this with so-and-so and we'd both be riding high right now! etc."
When Mr. Client reminded him that he'd already turned down the guitar/vocal demo of the same song, Mr. Big ears said "No way- I would have heard the potential in this one if you recorded it in your bedroom!"
Too funny.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Dayna, so...you want a hit. Well, I just know of you doing your w/s type stuff...in a very authentic w/s style. If you're going to write something different (NCS stuff), you need a web presence with that stuff! Exploit "YouTube"! Find someone pretty good that will do a decent video demo (doesn't have to be real fancy) you can place on the web. Then see what kind of numbers (web hits) and response you can get there. YouTube is an excellent place to try out new material, and expose it to a world audience.

Dayna Wills · From: Sacramento, CA (deceased)

you guys are just so full of ideas and experience. That's why I come here with my posers. Tonight, on the CMA, I din't hear one thing that sounds anything like what I write. I am thinking of looking at producers in Texas/OK who do more traditional stuff and who are releasing CDs consistantly. You never know when someone may hear a cut on another artists CD and want to do it. My co-writer in WA does an internet thing where he sets up in his living room and works in a virtual nightclub and gets tipped during his show. Y'all hip to this?
DW

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