why no pedals for Western Swing players ?

Ed Altrichter · From: Schroeder, Minnesota, USA

Here's a ? I asked in another string, too :
Why do Western Swing steel guitar playere prefer straight steel guitars, rather that pedals ?

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

I would think that if it is the authentic sound that is desired, then non pedal is the original instsrument. When western swing came about, there weren't pedal guitars.

I would think....

[This message was edited by HowardR on 20 March 2004 at 04:22 PM.]

Jeff Strouse · From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA

"Western Swing" was defined by Bob Wills and other groups (Spade Cooley, Tex Williams, Adolf Hofner, Milton Brown, and the list goes on). These groups used non-pedal, because that's all there really was back then. So my guess is that because non-pedal is what was used in the style or genre, mabye that's why it's preferred. Or, could it be, that's all that's needed (pedals aren't needed to play great Western Swing)?

Of course if anyone listens to the pedal playing Vance Terry, Curley Chalker, or Tom Morrell, it'll blow you away!! I've noticed that the pedal players I like listen to, started out on non-pedal. Hmmm....I wonder if there's a correlation there??

When pedals came on the scene, I think it was more associated with country sounds (Webb Pierce, etc). So I guess the sounds associated with the instruments, stick with the style/genre.

Gerald Ross · From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Listen to most swing soloing. It's very rhythmic. IMHO the non-pedal is more rhythmic than the pedal guitar.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Tradition.
All the sounds are there. One can lean on the band to fill the rest of the chord when necessary.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Whenever I was playing a western swing song with a Noel Boggs flavoring, that's what the leader wanted to hear. Can you imagine a good old, pure western swing tune by Bob Wills or Hank Thompson, and then hearing nothing but NASHVILLE PEDAL SOUNDS coming from the steel guitar? Gadd!

Or, doing a famous and popular Speedy West instrumental, and pumping pedals throughout
with all those Nashville licks.....Gee's!

I'm too young to really know for sure, and of course, I've never lived nor worked in Nashville, but as I recall, it was the pedal sounds AFTER Bud Issac's, the Hal Rugg, John Hughey, Emmons and others that made the pedal sounds FAMOUS......like in Nashville.

Of course these all-time greats, can play anything in any tuning and make it sound great HOWEVER, they are always conscious of what is being played and then they contribute their steel guitar sounds so as to compliment the flavor of the particular song. They'd never play Nashville pedals in a formal Hawiian setting and music.

A lot of today's steel players have simply not matured enough, musically, to know the difference. Nashville pedal sounds will never be heard from a real PRO, unless it's one of their own compositions or a tune that is symbolic to that specific sound. IMHO.

That is not to say that they don't use their pedals. I'm sure they use their pedals whenever the mood strikes them but not in the traditional NASHVILLE SOUND.....we've all heard on Loretta Lynn's or Conway Twitty's records. Emmons did a fabulous job on Duane Eddy's album of Country Guitar but I don't think he'd have done the same thing in any real Bob Wills Tribute. What say you?

Walter Stettner · From: Vienna, Austria

I don't think there is a specific reason to it. In the old days there were no pedals, so the players developed their personal styles of playing and later stuck to it. A good example is Don Helms (although not a Western Swing Player!) who played pedals for a few years, but later went back to his famous Gibson Console. Same thing with Tom Morrell, he also went from non-pedal to pedal and back.

On the other hand, listen to Buddy Emmons playing some of the hottest swing stuff on pedal steel.

Just a matter of personal style...

Kind regards, Walter
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

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David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

As much a point also is that there were differnt tunings used by most nonpedal swingers.
Hense the apearance of 2,3 and 4 neck lapsteels and consoles.

But there is nothing to say you can't use those tunings on a S-10.
Start with a base tuning and change a few pulls from E9 standard with the pedals to have 2 or 3 of those older tunings on a pedal steel with one neck, and thus have the same sound.

As I understand it this was the original idea for pedals, not the classic E9 Nashville licks.

Tom Morrell plays pedals also, though mostly non pedal.

His non pedal steel at ISGC had some hand levers with notches, to change to different tunings if he wanted.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 March 2004 at 02:24 AM.]

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Hum... well, let's not forget that some of the hottest Westen Swing steel guitar work was done with pedals... Eg: Bob White with his Bigsby gave Hank Thompson his landmark sound and so did Speedy West to many others.
Pedals came up looooong before Bud Isaak strung up that infamous E9th for the first time, opening the door to the "mash A&B"-Nashville sound.

I don't seem to see pdeals (E9th) making it in Hawaiian thou, althoug the E9th tuning would seem to lend itself for that flowing two note harmonies sliding approach. Pedals just don't seem to have the "soul" of well excecuted bar slants, unless it was Jimmy Day. However I would tend to belive that pedals set up as in a C6th tuning and just use to generate multiple tunings (necks) could have entered all of these styles without any loss of authenticity of feel and soul. An other thing maybe is, that pedal steels don't sound as full and pure as most non-pedal steels because off all the mechanics at it's brige side.

... J-D.

Chuck Halcomb · From: Lubbock, Texas

I once asked Tom Morrell why he wasn't playing a pedal steel and his answer was, "for this music [western swing], you don't need them".

On the other hand, Herb Remington plays pedal and he says, I play it like it was a non-pedal and use then pedals when convenient or to get a sound not otherwise available.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I believe the secret lies in the "moving tone" sound or the absence of it. Buddy Emmons plays pure western swing using a pedal guitar using pedals. However he does it on the C6 neck. But he rarely if ever uses the "moving tone" while doing it.

As JD said, Bob white used the classic 7th pedal all the time along with the 5th pedal sounds. Herb Remington played pedals too along with Juaquin Murphy while playing western swing.

What is missing in all the above and others who use pedals whilst playing western swing, is the lack of the "moving tone".

IE, instead of picking, then going down on a pedal(s) (save pedal 7) while one or more strings sustain, the note/chord is picked then it is muted and then the next note/chord is picked and muted, etc, etc, etc. Often changing grips between each new picked note or chord.

When I watch Tom Morrel, I rarely if ever see him slide or slant. And most every note is a chord. So it is pick, mute (regrip) pick, mute, regrip, etc, etc.

So to me, it is the absence of slurs or sustaining of notes, etc that make a non pedal guitar more at home with western swing.

Not to be disrespectful, but it is the above why I never cared much for western swing played on steel, opting rather for the sounds of Jerry Byrd playing the SAME tuning on a non pedal guitar.

For in essence, Jerry played "pedals" on a non pedal guitar. As an example: On strings 2 and 3 (5 and 6 on pedals-E9th) Jerry would move up two frets slanting the bar; or down 3 frets slanting the bar.

While a pedal steel player would get the same "moving" sound by pressing A and B at the same fret or move down five frets and pressing A and B while picking strings 5 and 6, letting them sustain as the pedals were engaged.

So IMO, western swing type steel playing differs from the so-called "Nashville sound" by the almost total absence of the moving tone. One other thing that distinguishes "western swing" steel playing is the use of substitute chords.

Example is using a minor for a 7th chord; like moving down two frets from the V7 chord fret and playing the minor (minus the "3rd" note) as is done with say pedal 5 on a C6 pedal guitar.

IE; E C A as oppossed to E C F# where D7 is the dominant chord.

carl

Wayne Cox · From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.

Well said, CARL!
~~W.C.~~

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

The other reason, IMHO is that there is a big difference in tone between a pedal steel, with its strings going through the changer mechanism, and a solid-wood non-pedal guitar like a Fender or Bigsby. A non-pedal guitar's tonal signature involves the the body more than a pedal steel which, Again IMO, leans more toward emphasizing the sound of the pickup. So all these factors ... tradition, lack of moving tone sounds, characteristic tone of non-pedal instruments all contributes to western swing players favoring non-pedal for that kind of music.

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 23 March 2004 at 03:37 AM.]

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

Andy I asked the same question years ago.And
your comments were EXACTLY what was told to me by the BOSS

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