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Topic: Chris Hillman- Father of Country Rock |
Dave Brophy
From:
Miami FL
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Posted 15 Aug 2006 10:34 am |
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Good stuff.I hope this isn't taking too much of a left turn,but it's something I've always wondered about.
In the early days of commercial Country Music,there were solo acts (Jimmie Rodgers) and groups (The Carter Family),and Star Plus Band (Roy Acuff and,Bill Monroe and).In the last category,the band members would be part of the presentation--radio listeners knew theiir names,the bass player was often a comedian like Stringbean,and so on.
Note-I'm not talking about the music,I'm talking about the presentaion.Or if we must use it,that horrible word marketing.
At some point,in the 50's(?),it seems it changed.Even though the Star's band had a name,the players were not presented as equals.Yes,musicians paid attention,but the audience wasn't encouraged so much to consider the musicians as an equal part of the act.Studio cats played on the records.
The marketing was now focused on the star,not a group.
There weren't many vocal groups,either.Before the Oak Ridge Boys came along,I have a hard time thinking of anyone but the Statler Bros.
The record business seems to have a long history of picking the singer out of a band and selling him or her.
Bear with me,I do have a point.
1964.The Beatles conquer the World and become the biggest-selling act in the history of recording.There are a lot of reasons given for how they were the right act at the right time to catch the public's imagination.
And one of them was the fact that they were a group.Four guys,four personalities.Who's your favorite Beatle.They were self-contained--they played and sang,nobody else was in the background.This was new,or at least it seemed new.(Even Buddy&The Crickets were more about Buddy.)
In other words,the presentation was about US,a group.Which is a very 60's thing,it seems to me.
Of course,it altered rock history.It became about groups,less about a solo singer.
Which brings me to the Country-rock period.It was largely about groups,not solo artists.Again,I'm talking about the presentaion.
Here's what I've wondered for years.The country-music recording business could hardly have not taken notice of the Beatles,and the subsequent domination of pop music by self-contained bands.It was obviously something the public had fallen for,hard.
So how was it that it took until 1980 for a major label to sign and promote a self-contained Country band-Alabama?
Even after Waylon and Willie,long hair and all,hit big circa '74 or so,no bands on the Country charts for another 6 years.Weird. |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 15 Aug 2006 10:47 am
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Well, anything learned from that era seems to have fallen by the wayside.
Today in the mainstream "hot country" with a handful of exceptions, Rascal Flatts, SheDaisy, etc.,-the group thing is out.
Now it's Tim, Faith, Kenny, Gretchen, Martina, George, Miranda, etc.
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Mark
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Bob Smith
From:
Allentown, New Jersey, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2006 12:31 pm
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| I always figured it was Hank Snow. |
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Chip Fossa
From:
Monson, MA, USA (deceased)
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Posted 15 Aug 2006 12:42 pm
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| FWIW, "Drugstore Truck Driving Man" is on "Dr Byrds & Mr Hyde", and not "The Notorious Byrd Brothers". |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 15 Aug 2006 1:20 pm
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| I'm not sure what to make of the group versus star thing. In R&B and jazz there seem to have always been some of both. Rock'n'roll started with Elvis as a star, but there were a bunch of do-wop groups. The '60s album rock craze was mostly about groups. It was a '60s thing to be skeptical of stars, who tended to be considered ego-freaks. But then there was Dylan...and Hendrix. Country-rock was mostly about groups - maybe that's why we can't agree on a father figure. On the other hand, there were Linda and Emmy Lou. |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 15 Aug 2006 1:45 pm
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Barroom conversation stuff over the internet - but it seems to me the domination in Nashville of the individual over group thing these days is all about marketing and presentation - it's easier to build an image and "portfolio" around an individual than to try to make the thing work with five or six people in a group, and the lack of an obvious "front man" (or woman).
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Mark
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 15 Aug 2006 3:28 pm
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... so you kept going to concerts, right?
Jim Cohen
YES! The Masonic Temple, Grande Ballroom, Hill Audtorium in Ann Arbor....I can close my eyes and still smell those places. Concerts had a smell in those days!  |
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Duncan Hodge
From:
DeLand, FL USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2006 3:44 pm
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Kevin, as per your post...
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1)Sweetheart Of The Rodeo with The Bryds.
2) The Burrittos with and without Parsons.
3) Souther Hillman Furay.
4) Manasas
5) Numerous solo projects.
6) Desert Rose Band
All these in the vain of Country Rock. I just don't see anyone else who kept it together for that long.
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Chris Hillman appears to be more the Forrest Gump of country rock, if not the actual father. Just like the movie, wherever you look in the genre there Chris Hillman is. Even though he never seemed to take the lead, although I have heard some great solo records by him, he was the main "utility infielder" of country rock, playing bass, guitar and mandolin along with adding beautiful tenor harmonies.
My vote goes for Forrest Gump of Country Rock.
Duncan |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 15 Aug 2006 6:48 pm
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Well, I just came home from Neil Flanz's gig tonight. I told him there was a thread he should be reading, about "who was the father of country rock?"
First two words out of his mouth: "Gram Parsons."
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Johnny Baldwin
From:
Long Beach, California, USA
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Dave Brophy
From:
Miami FL
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Posted 15 Aug 2006 8:32 pm
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Forest Gump? Ouch.Forest was a dumb guy who stumbled into History through a series of mis-haps and blunders.Did he have any visible skills besides ping-pong?
I look at the Burrito Bros as being largely Parsons'and Hillman's act.They wrote the tunes and arranged and co-sang the harmonies.Certainly Sneaky added a lot with his unique touch,but another good steeler could have worked,too.
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 15 Aug 2006 8:46 pm
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| Just finished reading a fascinating history of the Byrds at Jim McGuinn's website. There's a bit of jockeying there for priority (who recorded what first, etc.) but other than that, it's chock full of fascinating tidbits about McGuinn, Hillman, Parsons, Crosby, etc. Check it out at http://www.ibiblio.org/jimmy/mcguinn/ByrdsFAQ.html |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 9:56 am
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| There is a strong argument for Parsons also. |
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Rick McDuffie
From:
Benson, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 1:04 pm
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| I love this thread... and I pretty much love you guys |
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Chip Fossa
From:
Monson, MA, USA (deceased)
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 1:47 pm
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Glad you stumbled on that Byrds site, Jimbeaux.
I read it years ago, but it's still a great read. Can't help myself, as the Byrds and all their off-shoots just knocked me out.
I never noticed at the very bottom of page one, the link to Pyramid strings. I have a Mcguinn model Rickenbacker12 and checked out the strings - but, yikes - $36 a pop. Maybe Roger's getting half of that. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 1:58 pm
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| Must disagree with Donny about Wanda Jackson, who was undoubtedly before Linda R., but was a 50's rockabilly chick. |
It's fine to disagree with me Herb...but that won't change my mind.  A lot of people thought the "country-rock" stuff was new. But stylistically, it had much in common with what's called "rockabilly" now. Rockabilly was a cross between old rock and country (albeit, old country). Country-rock was quite similar, almost a rehash of what had been done a couple of decades earlier as rockabilly. The genre has no idols for me, and I found nothing astonishingly new and clever about it.
Similarly, though Dylan was constantly called "new and entirely different" ny so many, he was just a newer, younger folk singer to me...much along the same lines as Woody Guthrie. (That's not a slam, but a compliment, since Woody's often thought of as America's greatest and most prolific folk singer/writer).
Gram Parsons? I always thought he was stylistically similar to Buddy Holly, except for Gram using Sneaky Pete on steel. They were both young kids, combining country and rock, and winding up...being somewhere in between. (Listen to Gram's "Devil In Disguise", and Buddy's "Rave On" to see what I mean.)
Linda Ronstadt? Her hit "Silver Threads and Golden Needles" is real similar to Wanda Jacksons version...only without the "twanggy southern drawl". The same can be said for Linda's hit rendition of "That'll Be The Day". If that ain't genuine rockabilly, I'll buy you a beer!
Nope. Y'all can draw that distinct line between country-rock and rockabilly if you want, but for me it just ain't there. I was there and experienced both, and there's just too many similarities for me to consider the late '60s country-rock thing as something completely new and different.
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 2:51 pm
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I see Hillman as more of a survivor of the decades rather than the Father of CR..He clearly knew where his stong suit was and how to take advantage of it, and he did it as well if not better than the others.
I, like Donny feel there were a few that influenced GP and CH..Wanda Jackson, Lets have a Party...in my early years I about wore that 45 out...
I think GP and Hillman deserve tons of credit for taking an earlier theme and bringing it to a new audience and a new level.
I think Hillmans best adventure was the Desert Rose band..the lineup was exciting and clearly had a spark..with Chris leading the way it was clear to me that the boy had this stuff down pat...This band showed he was NOT a sideman...and it didn't hurt that JD was in that lineup thats for sure...
Grandfather of CR ? I don't see it that way..but a leader, inovator and very creative..oh yeh..you bet...
If I had to lay the title on anyone I too would offer it to GP...
t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 16 August 2006 at 04:03 PM.] |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 3:37 pm
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| I hear Charlie Pride in Gram's solo stuff. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 3:41 pm
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Okay Donny, I'll give thought to what you have to say, although I must admit disappointment at this singular departure from your usual excellent opinions.
I haven't gone back over all my posts, but I don't believe I ever said that the music was anything new, but rather the initial musical influences of the CR players and thier audiences were what was new.
But let me ask you this: If, as you say, the late 60's CR bands really only brought a new audience to an already existing style, would you not also say that the "Progressive Blue Grass" movement... a la Tony Trischka, Peter Wernik, Hot Rize, Sam Bush, New Grass Revival, John Cowan, et.al,... really didn't start anything new per se, but just brought a new audience to the same old Monroe / Flatt & Scruggs bluegrass?
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 16 August 2006 at 04:46 PM.] |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 4:36 pm
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| Hillman...clearly knew where his strong suit was and how to take advantage of it |
He also clearly knew where his Nudie suit was and how to get it cleaned. |
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Duncan Hodge
From:
DeLand, FL USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 4:46 pm
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Dave B, the Forrest Gump comparison was meant as a compliment. As I remember Forrest was a success at everything he did, and was present at almost every importent event of his age, much like Mr. Hillman. Also, as I believe I have read, Chris Hillman actually wrote the lion's share of the Burrito songs, GP, reportedly was the minor contributor.
Duncan |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 5:18 pm
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Two major GP tunes that were actually co-written that come to mind are Return of the Grevious Angel and Hickory Wind, and Chris Ethridge hardly gets any credit for Hot Burrito #1. He wrote the music. The lyrics to the first two songs I mentioned were written by someone else.
DZ |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 5:43 pm
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| Quote: |
| But let me ask you this: If, as you say, the late 60's CR bands really only brought a new audience to an already existing style, would you not also say that the "Progressive Blue Grass" movement... a la Tony Trischka, Peter Wernik, Hot Rize, Sam Bush, New Grass Revival, John Cowan, et.al,... really didn't start anything new per se, but just brought a new audience to the same old Monroe / Flatt & Scruggs bluegrass? |
Yes Herb, that's sorta how I feel. I draw parallels and connections with music I've heard before. You mentioned Trishka; I find most of his stuff a lot closer to old 'grass than I do artists like Alison Krause, who many call the hottest "bluegrass star" (?) in years. Same for Hot Rize, I really don't think they're that far at all from Monroe and Stanley.
'Bout a decade ago (maybe a little more), Bruce Springsteen was about the hottest thing in pop-rock music. Listening to one of his early hits at a club one night, I kept telling myself "I've heard that sound and vocal style before...long, long ago?" Well, an evening poring through my early (1950's) 45's revealed exactly what I'd suspected! A group named The Johnny Burnette Trio did a few records that sounded (to me), eeriely and incredibly like that Springsteen tune...that had just made the charts!  [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 16 August 2006 at 06:46 PM.] |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 6:42 pm
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From the other thread:
From Harris: "I was the audience he wanted to reach.Gram's writing brought his own personal generation's poetry and vision into the very traditional format of country music, and he came up with something completely different."
From Parsons: "I think pure country includes rock and roll...You can call it rock and roll or you can call it country music. I was brought up in the South, and I never knew the difference between Negro gospel music and country music; it was all just music to me...I never understood that, and I've never been able to get into the "further" label of country-rock. It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you define something like that? I just say this: It's music. Either it's good or it's bad; either you like it, or you don't" |
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