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Topic: Baritone guits |
Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 9:58 am |
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I am exploring ideas on the 6 string baritone guitar. Primarily in a lead role as used on Clint Black's Killin' Time and CRR's Queen of Memphis as opposed to tic tac bass lines.
I know that CRR's lead player [name escapes me at the moment, sorry] uses or did use a Tele Sub-sonic 27" scale tuned to B. Not sure about the Black tune.
I guess what I'm looking for is input from you guys that have actual experience playing them, and the differences in the B tuned 27" scale V the 30" scale tuned down an octave from standard. How much use could I expect to get out of it on your averge gig?
I have a short scale Framus bass and judging from the fret widths on that, I'm assuming that the 27" scale would be much better for chord or interval shapes for a guy with medium sized hands.
A fairly recent Gretsch catalog shows a doubleneck with both standard and 30" baritone tunings. It looks pretty cool but I can imagine it would be a load by the end of the night.
I found some info on the Tele Sub string gauges, but not much for the 30" baritone.
I'm not in a position to buy anything just yet, but would like to gather some info for study and hopefully a purchase when times are better. Thanx JO.
[This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 22 July 2006 at 11:10 AM.] |
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Al Moss
From:
Kent,OH,USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 10:27 am
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| Baritones are a fun little addition to the palette of sounds that can be made during an evening's performance, but, it may be hard to use it more than as a spice here and there. I play a Danelectro Bari tuned to a low "A". The "A" tuning seems more functional to me than the "B" and makes more visual sense when doing tranposing from standard gtr tuning to the Bari. There is a Danny Gatton live disc in which he's playing a double neck of stardard tuned and bari. The bari playing is every bit as cool as the standard stuff and automatically, the bari has that cool twangy fat tone. |
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 11:02 am
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I also use a Danelectro and tune it "A" to "A". I do have a set of string to tune it an octave down "E" to "E", but have only used that once on a recording.
Danelectro just put out a longhorn baritone reissue, it looks pretty cool and has a street price around $400. |
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James Pennebaker
From:
Mt. Juliet, TN
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 11:04 am
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I agree with Al. I also use one of the Danelectro Baritone reissues and tune it to A. A is a bit easier for me to transpose with than B but that is only because I'm a little slow on the uptake. I never go to a session without it though it only gets used occasionally. I think the sound of the Dano is excellent and maybe more recognizable to some as "the" sound since many of the old records with Bari tracks were cut on Danos.
JP |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 11:29 am
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| Not quite the same, but I've got a Danelectro that I put .012-.60's on, and tune it down a whole step to "D." It's NOT a bari, just the U2 reissue. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 11:34 am
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| Good to see that the Dano guitars are back out. I love the six string bass and the Bariton guitar they reissued years ago. I was suprised when they discontinued the guitars. Hope they bring more of them back. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 12:20 pm
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Thanks for all the great comments guys. Could be that the Tele I saw in CRR's band was tuned to A. That might make sense... especially if the tune is played in that key.
I was just going by Fender's propoganda that lists the Sub Sonic as B tuned.
Anyone using the Fender Subsonics [Tele, Strat, Jaguar]? The Dano appears to be standard judging by the comments so far.
'Preciate some examples of how/what songs you guys use it on too. [This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 22 July 2006 at 01:29 PM.] |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 12:31 pm
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I have an old Dano baritone in my collection, but it doesn't do too much for me. What I really enjoy is using the virtual capo on my Line 6 Variax acoustic to tune down an octave and play acoustic bass. It sounds really good in my opinion, and all the other musicians wonder where that sound is coming from.
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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 12:32 pm
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I have two Baritones. One a Dano that I don't play anymore, because the Strat with a Warmoth conversion neck totally destroyed it! I use SIT Pro Spec 1164 string set on the Warmoth/Strat.. 12,17,22p,36,50,64. Tuned to B. It plays exactly like a regular six-string feel-wise. Bends, hammers, tapping, whatever. The Dano is a very "stiff-feeling" guitar. I'm able to use the Warmoth/Strat on much more stuff than I could the Dano.
Sooo,,, if you have a Fender guitar that you don't use, check out the Warmoth site. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 1:07 pm
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I also have a Dano baritone tuned to A, and it sounds good, but I don't like the 30 inch scale. I'd prefer something shorter.
I'm thinking of getting a Variax with a Warmoth 27 or 28 inch scale neck an tuning it to A, and tuning the Dano down to E, making it a 6 string bass. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 6:26 pm
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I love baritone guitars, but I have also found the longer-scale versions of limited use except for texture and the occasional solo.
So for some time, my bari is one of the red-sparkle, standard-guitar-scale, Silvertone Danelectro 2-lipstick-pickup amp-in-the-case guitars with very heavy strings on it - I think they start out at .018p or .020w and go down to .085-.095. I tune down to B or A, it's not too slack, and can use it more widely by bringing it back up to higher pitches with a capo. When capoed, it is more in the standard guitar range, but has a much fuller sound, especially for rhythm. The difference, to my ears, between these and a 30-inch scale version is that the chords have more clarity.
For any of these, I find these instruments require a lot of sonic space. I can use these with bands that understand that - otherwise, it's a waste of time. They're huge-sounding in a subdued 2 or 3 piece without bass or drums. One of my favorite records displaying outstanding use of bari is Ray Kennedy's "What a Way to Go". |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2006 10:45 pm
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| I have a Dano Hodad and just tune it down to D w/stout strings. One time Pete Anderson brought a Tele over to my studio with a fat neck and a huge set of strings on there tuned all the way down to C like Steve Cropper always did on all those Stax records. So you don't really need a longer neck for that stuff - just different strings.As far as transposing,I just mentally pretend I'm in whatever key it looks like I'm playing in so there's nothing to keep track of. |
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Bill Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, Ga. USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 6:56 am
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FWIW, I opened for Marty Stuart Wednesday and talked with Kenny Vaughn a bit. He was playing a "Floyd" brand Tele knock off and said he is also using Floyd's baritiones. They play great and are relatively inexpensive he said.
You can hear Kenny on the Rick Trevino album ( I think the title is "In My Dreams") from a couple of years ago. Awesome stuff by Kenny and Dan Dugmore.
I think he said Floyd is around Nashville.
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Bill Cunningham
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 10:39 am
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| The Warmoth conversion necks are 28 3/8s scale length. My first bari was a Tele with big strings. It wasn't that great. When I found out how relatively cheap the Warmoth necks were, I bought on. I just found the Dano to be too stiff and of limited use. You can put a conversion neck on your Tele or Strat in about 10 minutes or less. String it up, re-intonate the bridge cuz of the bigger strings. Maybe an hour total, if you have a couple beers while doin' it! Here's a Warmoth page on the conversion neck. http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/necks/necks.cfm?fuseaction=strat_baritone [This message was edited by John Billings on 23 July 2006 at 11:42 AM.] |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 10:41 am
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Maple/maple Strat conversion neck...$167.
Basically a Sub-sonic Strat! |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 1:55 pm
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Thanx everybody. Some things here that I wasn't aware of or had not considered. The custom shop Tele Sub is just so cool and equally expensive.... I'm afraid it's beyond my means. It will be my first pick when I win the lotto.  OTOH, I do have a Tele I could swap necks on or possibly only string gauges just to get a taste of Baritoneness!
Thanks all, any other ideas or input welcome.
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 3:05 pm
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By the by....although I am not hip to Ray Kennedy or the tune you refer to Dave M., I will certaintly keep an ear out for it.
Michael J., Pete Anderson and Steve Cropper....what hosses those 2 are! How about a refresher on some of the Cropper Stax cuts you refer to? |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 3:11 pm
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| I'm not a guitarist but I just happened to be chatting with a picker I sat in with today who carries a Jerry Jones 6 string bass along with his Tele and G&L B-bender. He was saying that the guy who played the cool licks on the first Steve Earle release (my mind is blank on his name) was talking about his dislike for the bari guitars and is a big fan of the bass. My guy proceeded to pull off those Earle licks and what can I say--I was sold. Great sound. Don't know how that is tuned. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 3:54 pm
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Jon...thanks for the reminder. The Steve Earle tune [Guitar Town, isn't it?] is another example of the bari work I was referring to.
[This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 23 July 2006 at 05:01 PM.] |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 5:37 pm
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| Anything by Booker T,Otis Redding,Sam & Dave for starters - The lick in Soul Man,Sittin on the Dock of the Bay,the solo guitar in Green Onions,etc. He didn't often play baritone range cowboy licks as is probably being discussed here,though. Another guy who tuned down to C was Albert King. Lotsa guys put big strings on and tune a regular guitar down to D like Johnny Meeks from the Blue Caps and when I told Dale Watson about it,he started doing it too. -MJ- |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 7:49 pm
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| Quote: |
| He was saying that the guy who played the cool licks on the first Steve Earle release (my mind is blank on his name) was talking about his dislike for the bari guitars and is a big fan of the bass. |
You must be talking about Richard Bennett. "Guitar Town" lists 6-string bass, not bari. My guitar shop was a Jerry Jones dealer for a period, I had one of those longhorn 6-string basses for quite some time. They are great, but to me, one really needs a lot of sonic space for the sound, and it seems, to me, to compete with the bass. It is typically a bit more hollow-sounding than the full-scale bass, but I think it takes even more effort to find room for it. But it sure worked on "Guitar Town", though. 
When it comes down to it, I think they both can be made to work, and they are somewhat different beasts. I like the shorter-scale bari approach better because, to me, the sound is, for lack of a better word, a bit more "fluid". Playing up the neck on the bari guitar really is beautiful, IMO, and stands on its own without doubling.
BTW, I stand corrected on the Ray Kennedy record - I just looked at the sleeve, and it's listed as a "Silver Jones Longhorn Six String Bass". Of course, the '51 Tele and '58 Strat he doubled with this probably helped a lot.
That record, on Atlantic, was from about 1990, and "Doin' Life Without You" and "What A Way To Go" got a lot of airplay. It was recorded in his home studio, he played everything except steel and other slide instruments (Bruce Bouton) and Wurly (Ron Oates). To me, this is one of the classic modern country records, and showed complete mastery of understatement, which is why I think low-strung guitar worked so well. |
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 8:11 pm
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If you want to see how someone can get the most out of a baritone/6 string bass, then you need to get a Mike Henderson recording.
He is one of the guys that started "Dead Reckoning Records", and his Edge of Night album on that label is great. It pretty much features the baritone as the primary lead instrument. He even plays some terrific slide solos on his baritone.[This message was edited by Alvin Blaine on 23 July 2006 at 09:24 PM.] |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 8:20 pm
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| IMO, Mike Henderson is great for any aspect of his music. Edge of the Night is one of the best CDs I have heard in the last 20 years, and the title song has a killer low-strung guitar solo. The CD also has some great steel playing by Tommy Spurlock and Steve Hinson. I shoulda' remembered this one. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 24 Jul 2006 7:30 am
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I'm familiar with Steve C's work through that era +, but as what I believe are standard tunings. I would be interested in any tunes he cut using the aforementioned C tuning.
Mike Henderson. I remember seeing him around CMT several yrs. ago I believe. A video maybe with Kevin Welch? Some other TV spots with other artists and perhaps 1 or 2 featuring him and his music. Same guy? |
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2006 1:23 pm
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Jerry,
Yes that's Mike Henderson with Kevin Welch. Mike has played guitar for many folks over the years. He also had a couple of videos of his own music out and I think about four albums. Maybe more albums, but I have four of them.
He did have a song make it onto the charts a few years ago called "Wouldn't Lay My Guitar Down".[This message was edited by Alvin Blaine on 24 July 2006 at 02:27 PM.] |
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