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Topic: Selling Copies of old manuals... is it legal? |
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 8:34 am |
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Back in the early 1950’s Valco lap steels (National, Supro, Oahu) came with small booklets explaining how to tune the guitar, take care of the guitar or amp, etc. These booklets were just one sheet of paper printed on both sides, sometimes two sheets, folded into a small booklet.
Someone is now selling five Copies of the old 1950’s National Triplex Chord Changer tuning booklet on eBay, and the bids are up to almost $30.00 so far (for one copy). These are copies made by an individual and sold without the permission of the company. Of course, National went out of business in the 1960’s, but they are now back in business making resonator guitars, picks and accessories. Is it just me… or is something not kosher about selling such copies?
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My Site | My SteelTab
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James Stewart Jr
From:
Vero Beach Florida
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 8:58 am
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Know what you mean Doug ---But it is happening all over E bay.You can just about get a copy of a manual or just about anything, thanks to the quality of computers and printers.
I'm sure most of the manuals and other stuff have some kind of copyright or warning about unauthorized reproduction but now with E bay --people are finding quick ways to make a fast buck.
Yes I believe it's wrong - but it is probably gotten so far out of hand that it is out of control.
James Jr.
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1975 Sho~Bud Pro III Custom (8-7)
1981 Peavey Session 500
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 9:02 am
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| I have a hobby interest in buying, selling and repairing fountain pens, and this kind of thing comes up a lot - specifically, people selling copies of old catalogs, patents and repair manuals. I'm not sure what you mean by "kosher" - capitalism rules, AOL makes millions selling you something you can get for free, after all. If a specific person or entity can demonstrate that they are suffering a financial loss because someone has "stolen" copyrighted intellectual property, it can be stopped. Or, if you find a free source material and do some work on it, reorganizing it, cleaning it up in Photoshop etc, and then somebody steals the reworked version from you and sells it, they can be held liable also. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 9:15 am
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My take is simple. The old National company went out of business a long time ago. Unless the new owners of the trademarked name - or somebody else - also own the copyrights to all the old manuals and so on, I don't see what the problem is. To me, this is purely a legal matter, not an ethical one, and I don't know those the status of those legalities.
If we wanted to get into ethics, I would argue, from an ethical point of view, that the people who own those old Nationals have a "right" to purchase service information on the old guitars and amps that they own. But that has nothing to do with legal technicalities.
Of course, if the new National company owned copyrights on these manuals and was willing to distribute or sell them, I would argue against this kind of copying, from both a legal and ethical point of view. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 9:40 am
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As I remember, these old booklets had "VALCO CO. 1950" printed on them, but I'm not sure if they had an actual copyright notice. Either way, Valco has been out of business for 40 years. So maybe it's okay to copy and sell the stuff. Hmm... maybe I should have kept those old manuals!  [This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 11 June 2006 at 10:41 AM.] |
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John McGann
From:
Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 1:11 pm
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| I think they should be scanned and set free for whoever wants them- rather than someone who had nothing to do with the original product lining their pockets... |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 2:17 pm
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John, I agree with you. Posting the info for all steel players to see would be a great idea.
Carter has the Fender 400 manual posted on their site as well as a Stringmaster wiring diagram. John Ely has old Fender wiring diagrams on his site too. These hard-to-find, out-of-print guides should be shared by steel players.
I have no problem with selling Original old manuals, as collectibles and as useful guides. As far as copies... taking $30.00 for a couple of copied sheets of someone else's work seems unonscionable to me, even if the material is no longer under copyright.[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 11 June 2006 at 03:34 PM.] |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 2:53 pm
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As far as ethics are concerned, I have no problem, per se, with someone making money from doing something like this, if it's public domain material. Frankly, such manuals are often hard to find, and it often takes significant time and sometimes expense to locate them. Further, with rare materials like this, there are often not enough original copies so that everyone that wants one can have it.
There are vintage guitar and old electronic equipment dealers who go to significant effort to find and copy such materials, and make them generally available. If it's legal (i.e. public domain materials), I think they are performing a service, and I don't see why they don't have an ethical right to charge for them. Of course, I like to see stuff made freely available, but there is more than one point of view on this, IMO. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 3:14 pm
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| So if someone found an old 1950's steel guitar instructional book by Roy Wiggins, or Jerry Byrd, or Bud Issacs, etc. that was self-published or by a small publisher, and no longer under copyright... he could take that book to a print shop, have 500 copies made, sell them for $50 each? [This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 11 June 2006 at 04:15 PM.] |
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Michael Lee Allen
From:
Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 3:15 pm
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REMOVED
Last edited by Michael Lee Allen on 2 Mar 2011 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 6:49 pm
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I'm only talking about the hypothetical situation where something is not under copyright - then it's public domain. The idea is that there is a time limit under which somebody has monopoly protection to make and market something. For patents, it's even a much shorter time period.
For example, I don't see anybody complaining when somebody makes, markets, and sells a songbook of old public domain folk or blues songs. There are hundreds if not thousands of them, including by major publishers. It's making the compilation that is considered to be the "contribution". No writers or estates of writers gets a cent of royalty on that. We've had a bunch of these copyright discussions, but mostly about song rights. The issue here is basically the same, IMO.
BTW, I'm not saying that these old manuals are or are not under copyright - I don't know if they are or not. This is purely a hypothetical discussion. If they're under copyright, copying and selling is illegal.
Of course, if someone sells a copy, they should advertise clearly that it's a copy, not an original. But the people I see do this are very up front about it. As I said, sometimes this is the only way to get an old manual, schematic, or something like that. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 7:11 pm
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| How to make $51.00 for two sheets of paper copied at your local copy shop for 10 cents each: click |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 8:39 pm
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| Quote: |
| A work in the public domain can be copied freely by anyone. Such works include those of the U.S. Government and works for which the copyright has expired. Generally, for works created after 1978, the copyright lasts for 70 years beyond the life of the author. Works created before but not published before 1978 have special rules. For works created and first published between 1950 and 1978 the copyright lasts for 95 years. For works created and first published before 1950, the copyright lasts for 28 years but could have been renewed for another 67 years. |
Source: http://library.stanford.edu/cpyright.html
So, you're better off if something was published before 1950. It's unlikely that copyrights on old manuals from now-defunct companies were ever renewed.
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 Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog |
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Dan Sawyer
From:
Studio City, California, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 10:24 pm
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I don't know why this would be any different than selling a used book or CD. They have copyrights too. (You also see a lot of old user manuals for cars on eBay.)
For those of you who might want more information on these kind of bridges/ pitch changers, i did a special post about them. Go to: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/005939.html |
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James Stewart Jr
From:
Vero Beach Florida
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 10:49 pm
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Good replies and good points --- aside from my prievious posting --I guess I'm quilty also(clear throat).
I collect and restore vintage audio and I must admit -- some hard to find manuals and service manuals have come in handy.
Legal or not --- I guess it just depends on the need and want.
James,Jr.
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1975 Sho~Bud Pro III Custom (8-7)
1981 Peavey Session 500
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 11 Jun 2006 11:02 pm
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Dan, if a book has been bought and paid for, the owner may resell that book if he wishes. The writer has been paid for that book, and the buyer now owns it. But if that buyer makes Copies of that book and sells the copies it's illegal.
Evidently the old steel guitar manuals that are being copied and sold (see original post above) are no longer under copyright protection so there is no legal issue. The only issue in my mind is the ethical one of steel guitarists selling hard to find information to other steel guitarists, often for a high price. Of course the reason for the high price is the auction environment. I notice that the seller of the Triplex Tuning Manual relisted another Copy immediately, as soon as the first auction ended. And he listed the second one with a $10 opening bid. I think anyone wanting to buy a copy from him should wait a couple of weeks. When buyers catch on these copies will be selling for $2 each, as they should be. What a country.[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 12 June 2006 at 12:04 AM.] |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Jun 2006 6:29 am
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There is also the issue of ownership of the copyright. For example, the old National company is long, long gone. Somebody else now owns and protects the National trademark, but the relevant question here is whether they own anything else. It may be that some valid copyrights aren't really owned by anybody.
I think it's good that us steel guitar players share information freely - and we do. But consider the possibility that some of the people who unearth this kind of stuff are not steel players, or perhaps not musicians of any kind - they're just business people. In general, I think it's OK that they have an incentive to collect and distribute this kind of useful information.
OK, I think ebaying at $50 for this kind of thing is a bit much, but it's just (perceived) supply and demand. I think the basic problem here is ebay. There's too much of a "robber baron" mentality for my tastes - just MHO. I think ebay is the main reason that certain prime vintage guitars have doubled or tripled in the last couple of years, and I can attest that certain models have. This instant worldwide market has huge repercussions, but I think there will be an adjustment - in enough cases to be a problem, it's not an instant market based on 2-way accurate information, IMO. To boot, there's a lot of speculative fever going on. Again, IMO. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 12 Jun 2006 6:40 am
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| National Reso-phonic (the current company) has no affiliation with the original National company. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 12 Jun 2006 10:22 am
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| One of the fountain pen sites has actually begun construction of a "library" where they'll be posting scans of old catalogs, repair manuals, ads and such. Yes, these people are at least as crazy as guitar collectors - the number of lines chased into a metal cap can make the difference between a $50 pen and a $1500 pen. Not too surprisingly, the site administrators have come under vehement, even vicious attacks from certain people who have been happily selling Ebay photocopies of free stuff for years. Troll attacks, computer service attacks and all - it's interesting how strongly people will assert the "right" of first use and private ownership, simply because they stole it earliest. http://kamakurapens.invisionzone.com/ |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Jun 2006 9:45 am
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| Quote: |
| ...people who have been happily selling Ebay photocopies of free stuff for years. |
That's capitalism - maximizing income by minimizing investment.  Of course, why anyone would ever pay over a dollar or two for a photocopy of anything is beyond me. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 13 Jun 2006 8:45 pm
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They're paying for the information. $50 to find out how to set up the tuning on their Triplex Chord Changer. And that info is on two sheets of paper that cost 10 cents each to copy. It should be posted on line for all to see, and I'm sure it will be shortly.
I've owned a couple of these National TCC lap steels in the past. The guitar has a mechanism on the bridge that changes between 3 different tunings by moving a lever. There is a series of cams that raise certain strings. The cams only work one way, and may not be altered. So the user must know what tuning will work and will change to the other tunings. Someone could post this info in one short paragraph on line, and just list the 3 tunings. After all... it is in the public domain right? |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 14 Jun 2006 3:33 am
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The winner of that auction should copy the copies and list them on ebay.
Hey, free enterprise....gotta love it! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Jun 2006 3:57 am
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| Quote: |
| After all... it is in the public domain right? |
I don't think that matters, I don't believe that anyone (a judge, for instance), would consider typewritten "operating instructions" for a device as intellectual property. The fact that someone pays high prices for such material is sad, but as they say, "no one can take advantage of you without your consent".
This isn't a particle accelerator we're talking about, it's a simple set of cams on a shaft that raise and lower strings. Carvin offered the same device 40-50 years ago on their guitars under the name "Change-O-Matic Bridge". IMHO, anyone with a modicum of mechanical ability should be able to figure it out pretty quickly. |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2006 6:31 am
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Actually Donny, it's a fulcrum that does the work, at least on the modern guitars.
BTW: Who holds the patent on the fulcrum? I think I'll apply.
I've already researched the wheel and found that nobody holds the patent on that one. I've already applied. I'm seeking royalties of $10 per wheel throughout the globe, for the fulcrum, only $5. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Jun 2006 7:51 am
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Sorry to rain on your parade, Rick, but patent regulations are much more restrictive than copyrights. If you didn't actually invent something, you can't patent it! No way, no how.  This precludes anyone else from profiting from an inventor's oversight, or lack of initiative in acquiring a patent. |
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