Amp advice

Mike McBride · From: Indiana

I have a 20 watt RMS Peavey amp. I believe that the speaker in it is fine. When I play my guitar at a volume level of 3 on the amp, it has a nice sound. At 5 or higher, I get a lot of distortion. Do you you think that this is the fault of the amp or the guitar. The amp is a solid state unit Backstage, 20 years old. I have an Electra (cheap) electric guitar. Also, the guitar has a lot of hiss with IT'S volume knob below 3 or above 7. Any thoughts?

I typically play in my den at low volumes & so have never noticed it before.

I am buying a lap steel & am wondering about the future of this amp.

Mike

[This message was edited by Mike McBride on 02 March 2004 at 05:33 PM.]

Tim Rowley · From: Pinconning, MI, USA

It must be the nature of that amp model to overdrive easily. My friend Del Shorts had one that I could easily overdrive with my Telecaster at anything over half volume. They are NOT a good steel amp IMHO.

Tim Rowley

Bill Creller · From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)

That sounds like a 40 watt Pignose amp I bought,"because it had some power and looked cool" It would breakup almost immediatly, but I fixed it, traded it off!!
Bill

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

How fast it distorts relative to it's input level is based on two factors.

1) sensitivity of the input, the more sensative, the faster the distortion comes on. Steel's have hotter outputs that guitars typically so would likely need a lower input level setting.

2) over all power available to push the speakers. 20w is nothing to push a steel, except for practice.

So you are either overdriving the preamp because it is very sensative, or over driving the output power amp because there is nothing much to work with.

Doubling the power will give you only a small change in DB gain in the room measured at 1 meter.
Many think doubling the power will double the amount of sound put out, but that's not so.

That's why it's not uncommon to have 200-400w steel amps for those that want loud and CLEAN sound.
You need lots of reserve power to keep it clean.

Another issue is transistors vs tubes, most transitors have a harsher distortion when they are over driven, some like mosfets are kinder sound wise.

Tubes on the other hand have a much warmer knee as they go into an overdriven state, so a lower power tube amp will sound sweeter as it goes out of pure linearity.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 02 March 2004 at 03:43 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

All the old guys used really dinky little amps from valco or wherever and nothing has matched how cool those amps sound. You don't need much power to make a lap steel sound good. I use a Fender princeton which is maybe 10 watts and I don't even need that much. A Fender Champ would be plenty.
I played about a hundred gigs last year using nothing but a little princeton and a lap steel.

If you don't like the sound of your amp try something else out. Although it sounds like you are overdriving your input to me. Thats an easy fix.

Donald,
your advice might apply to the pedalsteel but the lap steel is a whole different ballgame. There is no need for one of those hidious pedalsteel amps with a lap. Not only are they way too heavy and large they really don't sound as good as a small amp running more efficiently.

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 02 March 2004 at 07:14 AM.]

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Most old non-pedal steels and small old (tube) amps are like peaches and cream (or if you like, steak and red wine)-made for each other!

I have a little '56 Princeton to go with my '54 Dual Pro (double 8 Fender). Those pickups match that amp beautifully- but also sounds great through later Fenders like the Deluxe Reverb.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

There is NO need for any amplifier to be more than 20 watts; IF the sound levels were not insanely high. However, IF one insists on playing at levels 10 times what God designed the human ear for, then of course you WILL over drive any 20w amp.

But it is sad, and hopefully, like smoking laws; one day we will see the insanity go by the wayside as good returns to sound.

Donald is correct about doubling of power. But it is not that the power does not double in his example. Rather it is the perception of power level in the human ear does not double. The formula is, "it takes 10 times the power for the human ear to perceive a doubling of sound level."

Gain has nothing to do with power. A common missconception concerning power versus gain. Power has nothing to do with gain. The two terms are totally separate from each other. But they both play a vital role in any amplifier.

Gain is how much an amp can amplify any given signal and feed it to the power output stage, whether that signal is small or large (within the minimum and maximum input paramters of the amp). So a 1 millivolt input will have the SAME gain as a 2 millivolt signal at its input assuming neither overdrives the inputs.

Example: If the preamp section has a 30 DB gain and 1 millivolt is present at its input, the power stages will receive 1 volt of signal. If there was a 2 millivolt signal inputed, then there would be 2 volts presented to the power stage. (Remember every 3 dB doubles in sound amplification).

Power is the ability of the output stage to drive a speaker.

IF the signal entering any amp is of sufficient level; AND that amp has a gain capability sufficient enough to feed the power stage its minimum required level (for full power), THEN that amp will drive the speaker to the amp's rated ouput power.

If either in the input stage OR the power stage; the maximum design input is exceed; distorion will appear at its output;, which takes us back to the author's problem I imagine. Although there could be a defect in his equipment (or amp) causing same.

carl

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Try backing down the volume control on the guitar a bit. This cleans up my Dr. Z. It's about 20 watts. It still sounds phat (is that today's correct terminology?), but not distorted. JB

Mike McBride · From: Indiana

My experiment was to determine what kind of volume my 20 watt RMS amp would generate. I am considering playing an outdoor party in May without a PA. I would desire a 100 foot radius of sound.

I have only tried it with the guitar's volume set at 10. When time allows I will experiment with lower guitar volume settings and higher amp settings.

And to think... I am just mastering the full range of pentatonic scales and then all of this electronics lingo slaps me in the face!!!!

[This message was edited by Mike McBride on 02 March 2004 at 05:32 PM.]

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Mike,

Here's some simple techniques to answer your questions from a practical perspective:

(1) Borrow a guitar you know to be good and not generate noises, from someone who also has an amp that fits that bill. A guitar with humbuckers will be better for this experimenting.

(2) Take your guitar and amp over to that person's house or have him/her bring their to you.

(3) Try your guitar in his/her amp and try his/her guitar in your amp. This will tell you allot about deficiencies in your guitar and/or your amp.

(4) If the problem proves to be your guitar, then have it serviced. You might have an Electra with onboard active electronic effects built in, ...whose circuitry can interfere with even the guitar's bypass circuitry. If the active electronics are sub-standard, a tech can cut them out of the circuits and clean up your passive circuits.

(5) If your amp is deficient, try this: Set the tone controls at #5, ...then set the master volume knob at #4, then set the preamp knobs to get the sound character you like, ...then set the tone knobs like you like but not higher than #8 on any one, ...then reset the master volume to the volume level you desire. See if that technique improves your amp's sound quality and understanding of it's sound quality. Also try plugging your amp into another speaker cabinet that you know is good and that you know is the same ohmage as your amp's speaker. Ohmage is very important to transistor amps. If your amp improves with the new speaker you can then make some judgements about if your amp is processing the quality of sound you want with the better speaker. If your speaker needs to be replaced, a high-efficiency JBL model will give your amp's sound ALLOT more volume and clarity. 20 watts through a D, E or K series JBL is PLENTY of volume for most small or medium sized clubs, even outdoors ...unless you're playing with Kiss or inexperienced headbangers or folks with large hat sizes. The larger the speaker, the fuller range it will have. I also use bass JBL's rather than Guitar JBL's because they produce a wider range of sound that our ears are keyed to. I have made that suggestion to many Guitarists who are usually well pleased with the results once they're reminded of what the tone knobs on their amp are for. But make sure a speaker would solve your problem before you go to the expense of buying one only to find out it didn't solve the problem. Large retailers with a no-questions-asked trial period / return policy afford you the ability to return the speaker unblemished if it doesn't please you. Keep in mind the previous advice that distorting transitors are ALLOT harsher sounding than tubed amps pushed to the top of their headroom. Also keep in mind that 20 years of regular sound through a consumer grade transistor amp often degrades their sound quality considerably ...especially if they have been played at their higher volume settings for that long.

(6) If you find that you need a new amp and budget is a consideration; I might suggest one with a tube pre-amp and solid state power amp. They are usually less expensive than an all-tube amp and as a general rule sound better than transistors with the preamps at high settings. I recently purchased a 20 watt Vox Cambridge on eBay, of that tube / transistor configuration, in mint condition, for $115, and it has VERY useful features such as line out that can feed a larger amp or satellite amp when needed, and is LOUD for most applications. It's a GREAT amp. There are a number of other good little amps under $150. Shopping for a new amp, consider this: About 90% of an amps POWER AMP (master) volume is produced in the first 4 numbers of the volume control knob! The pre-amp knobs, if the amp has one or more (most new amps do) should be considered as setting gain and not volume (although gain of at least #4 is required for the power amp to be filled with ample signal). Preamp and power amp volumes higher than 4 on the knobs, produce higher gain that is perceived as higher volume when in fact it increases practical volume only about 10-15% or thereabouts. So as a general idea, when you're shopping for an amp in a store (or someone's house) you need only turn the power amp (master) volume to number 5 to get a good idea of how the amp is going to sound in larger rooms or outdoors. When I shop for an amp at a store, I often ask them for a JBL loaded extension cabinet to try it through as well (or high quality, efficient, full range cabinet) so I can get an idea of what the amp sounds like and will push in extension cabinets, ...which many large retailers usually have even if only in their PA speaker sets, ...and which often requires an adapter to jump the amps speaker output if there is no speaker-out jack on the amp; But most stores have such an adapter in their repair section, ....and if that's too much trouble for them then I leave and go elsewhere to shop.

Also for budget mindedness, ...you might consider Danelectro's discontinued Nifty 50 amps; Which are relatively new and usually under $100 each IF you can find them. They're all-solid-state but a very good tube-like sound and quite loud for 15 watts ...especially through a JBL cabinet. I use a Nifty 50 for a satellite, and am very pleased with it (and often a pair as my rig). 2 of them played together are plenty for most smaller clubs ...especially if 1 is through a JBL cabinet. ------- While I'm on the subject; Regarding a pair of amps, I might also mention that 1 of the 2 can be set on the other side of the stage as a satellite, and if you let the people on that other side of the stage control it's volume it will go a long way in good stage balance ...because they will (or will learn to) turn your satellite down as an option to turning theirs' up (which Most Musicians will realize and appreciate) ...and with only half your outfront volume on their side of the stage they WILL have to keep their volume under control to keep your satellite in a good stage balance! (The one on your side feeds your ears and half the out-front). ...and if they still get too loud, turn the feed to your satellite down (and the one on your side up if need be), ...and stick to that arrangement until the other pickers realize the value of that arrangement. Stereo effects and reverb depth are also accentuated with widely spaced amp pairs.

Denny T~

D1-1 Slide diddley-bow through an old Victrola.

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 05 March 2004 at 01:11 PM.]

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