ASCAP demanding royalities?? HELP!

Bill Simmons · From: Keller, Texas/Birmingham, AL, R.I.P.

HELP! Can anyone help this restaurant owner and band friends with this unique situation?

Here's the problem...ASCAP is demanding royalty money from this restaurant owner for the live music and even the TVs that are playing in the sports bar area. This sounds wild! Do all pubs/resturant/club owners have to pay music royalities for the bands playing in their building???

Anyone know anything about ASCAP and their policies? Are bands at risk of being charged royalties for playing gigs?

Need advice fast for my friends...thanks!

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Everybody pays. ASCAP, BMI and SESAC.

Edit. This is a one time per year fee paid by the club owner NOT the band.

[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 05 October 2005 at 08:47 PM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Live Music , yes..

TV ? Never heard of that one...

I suspect the Club owner already knew of this ASCAP requirement...I think he or she is playing dumb here...

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

Money rules the world; all else is a distant second!

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Bill Simmons · From: Keller, Texas/Birmingham, AL, R.I.P.

Thanks everyone! Any idea what the average annual royality fee is? I have forwarded these posts to the leader of the band...appreciate the comments...

Bill Crook · From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance

Personally I would tell the ASCAP egghead to stuff a wet noodle................

I guess they hired a new dude that wants strut his stuff !!

Wanting Royalty monies on TV's in a bar ????
What kind of a fool is he ?

I'm sure it's their attitude that:
If you even own a guitar,Steel,Mike,or other musical device,(even in your own home) You should pay them money to play,listen, or use it.

It's the stupid crapp like that is why everyone should tell ASCAP,BMI,to stuff it !

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http://home.comcast.net/~crookwf/
http://photobucket.com/albums/v479/billcrook/

[This message was edited by Bill Crook on 06 October 2005 at 03:05 PM.]

Gene H. Brown · From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada

Problem is.....That's just one of the ways a writer/composer makes their money. You have to remember that ascap/bmi/socan/sesac are all non-profic organizations, the money they collect goes to the artists/writers/producers and if you do nothing in this business but write or compose, that's the only income you have. JMHO

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!
;)

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

If there's any music played in any establishment open to the public according to a federal law they're entitled to royalty money from the owners of the establishment, not from any band or anybody else. I went through all of this being in the club business for over 16 years and I can tell you I've seen some hefty fines levied on club owners for refusing to pay and one very near me here in Nshville had her car towed off by Ascap. Personally I think the clubs should be let off the hook when it comes this stuff and any place that uses a radio or taped music. If it weren't for the clubs and bars that had live music, there wouldn't be a band and a lot less songwriters. I tend to think I'd have never got the bug to play music if I didn't want to play live somewhere and I think that would be case for most of us. I look at like biting the hand that feeds you. Most of the money does not go to the songwriters and I know this for a fact. These big executives from Ascap and BMI and even SESAC go on very long trips to exotic places to "entertain girlfriends/clients/hookers" call it what you will and it's all charged to the royalties payed into the company. That's just little of what I've seen go on here. I think more than enough royalties are payed into these thug establishments to cover the real cost of doing business without hurting small mom and pop clubs. I heard of these people going into a gas station and demanding royaties because they had a TV or a radio playing while the customers waited for their car to be fixed. I dealt with them and found them to be little more than dock bullies when it comes to me handing over the money. It's no different than paying the mob to operate. You pay them and they leave you alone and they do raise the anti from time to time. I'd rather give the money to the band than give it to ASCAP or BMI. They get enough from other sources.

Ben Slaughter · From: Madera, California

How is the creator and owner of intellectual property supposed to get paid? If I invent some new changer that revolutionizes the PSG and everyone wants one, am I to let everyone copy my design for free?

Songwriters DO get paid by these agencies, which are collecting "performance" royalties. There are other types of royalties such as "mechanical" (reproduction). And if anyone thinks songwriters are getting rich off these royalties, they're wrong. The only songwriters that are getting rich are the very lucky ones that have multiple MEGA hits, and I'm talking several weeks in the #1 spot.

I just can't fathom why people are so adamant about songwriters NOT getting paid. Now, maybe some snot nose, overzealous ASCAP folks has taken some draconian steps to collect, but the fees required bars and clubs are nominal at most. They're usually based on capacity, and for small clubs, I've never heard of a fee than was more than about $200 PER YEAR. If ASCAP/BMI/SECAC is wanting more money these days, please, correct me, I want to know.

But please, remember, without songwriters, what songs are you going to play??? And songwriter’s gotta eat too, much less pay the band.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

I make about 1/4 of my annual income from songwriting royalties, paid to me by SOCAN, the Canadian ASCAP. (ASCAP pays me any USA radio/TV royalties). SOCAN does the exact same thing...it collects fees from any business that uses music, and redistributes these funds to the original creators of the music being used. I can't believe for a minute that any musician would oppose this fee for clubs, radio stations, and all other establishments that rely on music as its principal form of entertainment. If these businesses do not want to pay up, then they don't have to use music in any form. Everyone can play video trivia or just stare at each other.

These places NEED music; without it, they know they're dead in the water.

I don't care who flies where and has a great time on the collected fees (although I've never heard of this), I'm just happy that every three months I'm rewarded for my songwriting efforts by a nice cheque in the mail that allows me to feed my family and continue to be a full-time musician and songwriter. We lose enough in burned-off CDs and downloading; at least songwriters get some compensation.

If non-songwriting musicians take a negative attitude toward the collection of royalty fees, they will soon be seeing negative on their bank statements as well. Nowhere to play, no new songs, no new recordings, all-talk radio....you get the picture.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"It's the stupid crapp like that is why everyone should tell ASCAP,BMI,to stuff it !"

And it's that type of attitude that keeps artists from getting paid for their work.

Granted, the "TV" thing is a reach, but I'dd like to hear the other side of the story before buying that. But if you are having live music played or canned music piped in, yes - you should have to pay royalties. That and radio are the ways songwriters get paid.

Leslie Ehrlich · From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

This gives me all the more incentive not to play cover tunes and stick to doing original material. Hooray for ASCAP!

Keith Cordell · From: San Diego

If you are going to be offended by people using tracks for performance and also be offended by ASCAP doing their job and demanding a lousy $200 or so a year from clubs, consider this; the performers get a substantial chunk of their income sometimes from ASCAP or BMI, but losses from unpaid use of music might account for the inability to fork out what sidemen think is a reasonable check for shows and tours. Can't have it both ways.

JAMES BANKS · From: Mineola,TX USA

A few years ago, I was the chairman of a festival in our town. All day Saturday, we had people on a stage singing with sound trax. I was called by ASCAP and or BMI and they said we should pay their fees. They explained that if those performers were using trax and getting paid, the fees would pay the song writers. I told them the performers were performing for free and then the guy changed his story and said they should be paid the license fee because the song writer got their royalty from the ASCAP or BMI fee. I asked if we would be required to keep up with which material was used so the correct song writer artist would get the money. He told me no. When I asked how he was make sure the proper person would get the money, he told me to forget it and hung up. My question is still, if the songwriter gets the money, how will they know what material was played if no one keeps a record of which material is used?
James

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

James,

Radio and television stations periodically submit playlists to ASCAP and/or BMI, and artists get reimbursed by ASCAP/BMI according to the playing frequency of their registered works. (The reimbursment amount varies between TV, AM, FM, etc. It's not a whole lot unless you have a nation wide hit.) These stations pay their annual fees to use composers' music. Fees from radio and tv alone would not be able to pay for the millions paid back in royalites each trimester. Therefore, each and every businessman who uses music to make money has to pay into ASCAP/BMI so that all registered artists get the amount they're owed.

Artists also submit their playlists to ASCAP/BMI from establishments in which they have performed. If the cover charge is over 6 bucks, then an artist can submit a playlist of registered works along with proof of the gig (newspaper listing/poster) and receive performance royalties. I have other artists performing my work in concert, and every so often I see a royalty on my statement for that.

All venues and businesses that use music have to pay, because it costs an enormous amount every three months to pay artists across the country what they're owed. A nightclub's annual fee usually adds up to the door take on a single Friday night of a full year....peanuts for a crowd who are accustomed to using musicians and paying them about 10% of what's actually coming in.

I have 0 pity for club owners.

Billy Henderson · From: Portland, AR, USA

This from a musician buddy, he's been pickin and grinnin for a long time and a very prolific song writer. His words . .

"ASCAP leaned on a seafood restauruant in Greenville (MS) that had live music one
nite a week for three hours only.
Several songwriters were using it as a venue to test new material, although
cover tunes were played in between unpublished songs. No musac-no t.v.-no
radio any other time. The ASCAP bill for 12 mo's was $900.00... no
negoitations and due now!
A court order was in his other hand.
Now there is no venue for undiscovered music here. The crowds fell to slim & slimmer.
nobody wins except the ASCAP rep who told the lady he would shut her down in
a heartbeat."

Knowing this area I have to say this was overkill. Maybe a different ASCAP Rep would seen it differently.

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

Folks,
If it were a mere $200 a year I kind of doubt anybody would say anything. Even the mom and pop spots can go that much. You're nowhere in the ball park. I knew there would be a songwriter or two to come on and talk about how great ASCAP is. I wouldn't bite the hand that feeds me either.

I'm telling you from first hand business dealings with these people that it can be no different than dealing with the Teamsters in the days of Jimmy Hoffa when you refuse to pay or think they're sticking it to you. They could care less whether you stay in business or even if you have the money to pay your musicians. I've payed musicians when we lost money on dozens of nights over the years and went a lot farther than that to help them keep food on their table. Come to Nashville sometime and see the building they built not too long ago on Music Row. The building they had was fine but the neighborhood was renovating (gentrifying is what they call it) and they wanted to be sure they had the biggest building on the block. All of the songwriters have a right to get paid of course but it seems to me they're going too darn far to collect money when they go into a place like Deja Vu and expect the place to pay royaties because the girls are dancing to CD's they bought at the store. I kind of think they already got their money through the sale of the CD in the first place. To me that's no different than the state collecting sales tax everytime a used car is sold. In the end they've collected far more than the law required of the original purchase price. Next thing you know they'll be standing outside little girls bedroom windows trying to collect from the parents because they were playing their stereos loud enough for the neighbors to hear! I was paying Ascap back in the 80's only to find out later that the guy that would come by and collect the money was spending that money on gambling and girl shows and it never got reported or turned in to Ascap. I was giving him cash out of the cash register and he was giving me reciepts from Ascap. Now that's a true story and you heard it here.

Joe Alterio · From: Irvington, Indiana

It was kind of humorous....one of the local music bars here in town, which *usually* features all-original bands, had a night of covers from a local band. The band was to play two hours, and already finished the first hour and was taking a break. In the meantime, in walked the ASCAP guy.

The bar owners demanded that the band (who, incidentally, were playing for tips) not play any covers. Problem was, they had already played their two original songs! I wasn't helping matters by suggesting they play only BMI songs (which they were considering....but who keeps a record of what's a BMI vs. ASCAP song).

In the end, someone called out that it was a guy in the audience's birthday, and the drunk guitar player busted into the Beatles' "Birthday" riff. Now, I dunno if that's an ASCAP song or not, but it was all the ASCAP guy needed to bust the bar and force them to pay. At least, that's how it was told to me (and if true, funny!).

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

1) Royalties for TV and radio programming are paid by the broadcasters. Royalties for live cover and jukebox music on the other hand are the sole responsibility of the venue presenting it.

2) BMI attempts to track precicsely what is played via direct reporting methods and eventually pays accordingly, generally a better setup for those who never have a "hit" but still receive some airplay, media sales or live covers. ASCAP, on the other hand, conducts various industry surveys and examines major network playlists to determine who gets paid using a sampling paradigm -- the little guys who never get their songs played on ClearChannel seldom if ever see a dime.

3) Songwriters deserve to get paid for the use of their creations. Club owners and musicians deserve to get paid for their hard work and investment. Crooks deserve to get thrown in jail. In a perfect world all of the above would take place all the time.

4) This ain't a perfect world. Yet. If you've got an idea as to how it can be made so then please go for it ASAP! Elsewise, just pay the man, hope for the best and keep on playing.

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 07 October 2005 at 09:55 PM.]

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

I don't think any bar, club or gathering of less than 300 people should have to pay for the right to use music from Ascap or BMI. Clubs no bigger than this don't have an easy time of it to say the least and I can tell you for a fact I know this to be true. Ever notice how many small bars and clubs change hands so often? Guess what, it's not easy being the little guy and the last thing you need is someone outside of the beer distributor or the local government trying to take the last bit of profit you squeeked out of the month. Musicians wonder why the clubs in Nashville pay so little for the bands but if they were on the other side of the bar paying the bills, they'd have a better view of what the club owner is up against. We have a local sales tax of 9.25 percent and if you've got a liquor license it's a lot more. In the super market business (grocery stores like Kroger) the profit margin isn't more than 3 percent. You can see why they're so hard on shoplifters. All I'm saying is that when a bar or club has to shell out over $2500 a year to Ascap and the same to BMI (usually just a little cheaper) the first thing the club owner is going to cut back on is the bands pay. Next time you think you're not getting payed enough for the gig you're playing, see if the club owner tells you how much he pays Ascap and BMI. You'll be amazed and that money could've went to the band.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

I respectfully disagree with all comments suggesting that the money spent on ASCAP fees could have gone to the band. Club owners and musicians both know that a bar is not going to give musicians any more than it has to. Some bar owners, if given the choice, would rather pay the royalty fee to ASCAP instead of giving it to the musicians. Most friendly relations between bar owers and musicians is purely a facade. I've seen musicians give a bar a break if it had a bad night, but I never once saw a club give a musician more than the agreed band fee because they had really great bar sales. Bar owners want to make as much as possible, while musicians simply want their due. That's a big difference in ethics. How about this fact: the price of beer and liquor has gone from a buck a drink in the 70's, to 4 bucks or more now; musicians' pay has stayed exactly the same. I know musicians who made 100 bucks a night in the 70's, and make the same now. There's something wrong with that. Some club owners charge musicians full price for a beer - club owners care about one thing: money. And that's why they hate paying ASCAP and BMI - it feels too much like giving musicians something extra. I don't know how many times club owners have to come to me bitching about having to pay royalties. They must have me confused with someone who gives a $%*t.

The bottom line here is that if you open an establishment, however small, you need to pay for the use of music. You of course do not have to pay ASCAP for music you play in a private place, like your bedroom or living room.....because no one is making money around it. Anyone who opens a club needs to know that there are costs associated with the use of music. If you feel you don't need music in your club to make money, then don't use it. I'm sick and tired of people wanting music for nothing, especially when they're making money by using it.

Do you think an electician or plumber would charge a small club less than a large club for the installation of toilets and outlets? It's all the same to them. You need toilets and electricity to run a club, just like you need music. And that also costs money. I'm so glad someone is looking out for the people who create these songs.

As far as ASCAP employees spending the collected fees on themselves, I'm with Mr. Grafe in the mindset that there are bad apples everywhere. Find the name of the guy and report him....that's what I would do.

[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 08 October 2005 at 10:02 AM.]

Chuck Hall · From: Warner Robins, Ga, USA

As a "once was" bar owner, my place would seat 350 but rarely (except for New Years Eve) ever had more than 100. I had music only on Fri and Sat night and was closed on the other days of the week. I can say from personal experience that when the ASCAP man came to visit, I felt that I had been robbed (raped). He was rude, crude and socially unacceptable. The comment on Jimmy Hoffa and group was mild my ordeal felt more like Frank Gotti and friends.

The BMI rep on the other hand was very friendly and helpful. I might say, at that time that more songwriters (of which I am also one and like to get paid too) were signed up with BMI than ASCAP.

Earlier in my career, I played a venue where I was told by the owner not to play ASCAP music. It didn't take much research to determine that only about 4 or 5 of the songs I was doing at that time were ASCAP songs so I complied. I thought it strange until my run in the the robber barrons.

Please remember that I am a weedend musician, a songwriter and was once a bar owner so I've been on all sides of the bar.

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EMCI D10 8/4 and Nashville 400

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

Like I said above, the songwriters won't bite the hand that feeds them and I respect that. I was in business for over 16 years in Nashville and when it got thin in the winter I've had more than one musician sleep in the bar because they didn't have a room and would've slept in the car. That's common around here believe it or not. The last two Thanksgivings we had a house full of the pickers that used to play for us along with friends and former patrons of the bar and we had the best time ever. We turned the TV off and just told war stories.
Chris, your experience with club owners is kind of typical but not always the case. I'm a picker and have been nearly all my life and I understand the pickers a little better than the average club owner and for that reason we got along very well. That's not to say I gave away the store to the musicians but every time I see them downtown, they ask when I'm going back in business. Chucks description of the thugs from ASCAP is right on. The BMI guys did seem to be a lot nicer and just a notch cheaper. Like a said above, you just don't really have a clue what it takes to run a bar and pay people until you're on the other side of the bar and counting the money. I made more money in the 70's than I get payed to play now too. Do you think it's just because there's this worldwide movement to not pay the musicians any more money? This is really simple. Next time you go out to play, look around and watch your audience and pay attention to them. How many applauded for that last tune? Guess what, if they don't applaud, you didn't cut it period. It's not the crowds fault, it's yours. Do that enough and they'll leave or at the very least won't drink as much as they would if they were really into the music. When you've got them standing outside trying to get a seat on a consistent basis, my guess is you can go in there and demand more money and get it! Guess what, when the bar does a capacity business, it doesn't cost them anything more for ASCAP or BMI. That means it's a hell of a lot easier to pay them. Believe me when you've got the bucks in the bank, you don't mind writing that check but when it's not there you think about getting robbed and changing bands.

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

I had a conversation with the club owner where I played this Friday about this... he was livid after his last ASCAP visit.

Brand new club, they came in and estimated capacity, etc., and presented him with a bill for $1895 for the year. He said no way, and it turned out part of what they were asking for was payment for the Football TV feed (?) which he pays through the feed service, and the jukebox, which also is paid through the fancy download service he uses.
So then it became $1600 for the year. After his refusal, $1325, $1100, and last bill has been for $625. He told me he told them he's not paying as he wants to know what their bottom line is- since they obviously don't know!

There's no doubt the idea of intellectual property requires payment so the songwriters actually see income from their work, and the performance rights societites are filling a needed gap. Hard on club owners, but they're making money from the performance of someone else's intellectual property.
But from stories here, it seems at least some ASCAP reps need to clean up their act...

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

In Boston, the same bars that paid $200 for a band in 1981 now pay $150. I guess those beer kegs are now made of platinum- or maybe that's the club owner's yacht wheel...how much is a new set of strings again?

Glad I got that cardiac surgeon career to fall back on...Spagetti-o's are a lot more expensive than they were in 1981

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 13 October 2005 at 07:35 AM.]

[This message was edited by John McGann on 13 October 2005 at 07:36 AM.]

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