Downsizing and musical integrity

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

This came up as an offshoot of another topic.

Everyone's felt the pressure of downsizing in bands, especially steel players. But even if you're one of the people left after the jettison, don't you sometimes feel the music has been gutted beyond repair ?

Subjectivity is a big issue in any circumstance, but I've personally seen a few situations in which downsizing has gone too far, and the integrity of the music was lost, in my opinion.
I'm talking severe situations - I don't mean
"It doesn't sound as nice without the _______ player", I mean the music just doesn't fly.

My own situation involved a jazz trio gig which used to consist of horn, keys, and bass (already doing without a drummer... ugh). The leader is old school, and all the members know every standard you could name without using a book. The reason for the change is twofold: Because of a shortage of bass players in the area who are capable of playing so much as "happy birthday" without a friggin' book in front of them, and partly because of his pianist's somewhat undeserved reputation of being able to run good bass lines with his left hand (that's me), the horn/leader guy decides to add a guitarist instead of replacing the bass player.
Great guitar player too, but trading off bass lines while trying to also trade four bar segments between three people is a nightmare I would not wish on anyone.
Despite the efforts of the fearless crew, the music, in my opinion, does not fly. The leader disagrees.
So, we've agreed to disagree, and I've walked from the gig with our friendship intact. Was that the right thing to do ?

Later the same week I went to a local club to hear a piano player friend of mine. The trio consisted of him, a sax player, and a vocalist. Here's the poor guy trying to pound out bass lines and still function as a pianist, while the other two members spend half the evening sittig on their duff, watching him trying to swim upstream.

"How does it sound?" he asked me during the break. "It sounds really..... um.... bad, Jerry... sorry" I said.

And what's the impact on the future when you start doing half-baked things like this ? Would the audience know the band was struggling because of the complete absence of a rhythm section, or would they just say "This band sucks !" ?

I kinda smile when I see someone get on their high horse in here and proclaim "The band just can't function without a steel guitar !" Yeah? Try doing without the bass player and drummer and see how you like it.

That's when you go beyond losing something that's "nice" and get into losing something that's "essential".

Thanks for reading my rant. {/rant}
I'd welcome any comments.

-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

John,,

Rant is acceptable IMHO.. Wouldn't want to be in your shoes..

Due to "clubs" in our area "down sizing" the band We have went from a 4 pc. down to my wife and I working a duo. [still have one gig a mo. with a 4 pc.]
This duo consist of her on Bass guitar, me on 6 string and steel with [shudder] elect. drums, so this is still passible and dancable, but nothing like it did, and should still sound!!!

NO DRUMS, NO BASS, NO OTHER INSTRUMENT capable of rhythem??? Think I'd just as soon go fishing!!

Larry

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Emmons S/D-10, 3/5, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

[This message was edited by Larry Strawn on 13 October 2005 at 01:42 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I believe that if good musicians know the songs, they can create good music in any configuration. Now, whether this is the music that the audience wants to hear is another question.

Open Hearts is a 7 piece band, but at times we play as a trio or as a quartet. The sound is very different when you just have acoustic guitar, harmonica and pedal steel. But I have to say that we make it work and have a good time with it. We don't book it into dance venues, of course!

It's like charcoal vs. oil paints. Both can be used to great artistic effect, but one never looks like the other.

As for your quandary, John, why not think of it as a piano accompaniment gig backing a sax player? Instead of dwelling on what's missing, concentrate on making music with what's there.

If that doesn't work, start your own band.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Very insightful questions, b0b.

I work with the same horn player on a duo gig. The duos rotate, and it's interesting to hear how each "back line" guy handles it.
It's usually a piano or guitar, and some don't change their approach at all, they just gently comp chords behind the front guy with no regard to roots, and play basically the same as they would if there was a bassist there. Some horn players out front like this freedom and airy feel. One Coltrane-inspired 17 year old alto prodigy I did the duo thing with - When I'd back off on the density of the rhythm behind him, he'd take off like a jet plane.
Others, like my duo partner, do not feel comfortable unless their backing partner is beating out bass lines like Ray Brown. If I quit doing that, he'd freak. Personally, I'd be fine with that. He would not.
He also couldn't understand why adding a guitar alone to the rhythm section only made it worse. Ok, assuming there must always be a bass line, consider this scenario:
- The tune starts, the horn player plays the head. Pianist is doing bass lines and the guitar is comping chords. The pianist must literally sit on his right hand to keep from comping chords/rhythms which might clash with the guitarist's. After the head, the horn player solos. Then he hands it off to the back line without specifying.
- There is a brief moment of consternation as the pianist/guitarist decide the piano will solo first. Guitar switches to bass lines so the pianist can comp his own appropriate chords.
- Then comes guitar solo. Guitarist stops playing bass lines and solos, while the pianist picks up that bass line and comps (as long as guitarist isn't playing dense chord melody solos)
- Following this, the horn player plays four bars of solo, and turns to the band to trade fours. Back on the battlements, the guitarist leaps in to cover the four bars, as the pianist hasn't time to drop the bass line.... that is until the next four bars, where he must solo and comp without bass lines. For four bars only...
- After several skirmishes and a near rout, the horn player picks up the head again, and you're out. Tune #1 has come out as a rubix cube for musicians, and you've got 24 more to go.
- The pianist staggers, bruised and bleeding to the bar, begging for a tall single malt.

See what I mean ?

I do lead my own trio on occasion, but dislike the headaches of management (my day job is enough). It, however, has a bassist and drummer.
Partly owing to my belief that, amongst small jazz combos, the piano trio is the most formidable weapon in the arsenal, I'd also say I'd put it up against any bassless trio anywhere.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, all.
-John

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

I also think it's interesting to point out that this dowsizing "quandry" (from which I have extricated myself) is not due to pressure from any club owner... it's contained amongst the musicians, and very much a matter of subjective opinion.
Thanks.
-John

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I firmly believe the reward I get from enduring a day job entitles me to be selective and say "no thank you" when the music is no longer fun for me.

I have run bands, and will not do that again because it distracted from the reason I am in music. It's the love of playing music I enjoy.

As the economy tightens, some of the venues that our New Country band plays are switching to rock formats. Some of our members want to switch. I can cover most rock really well on a six string, since I have been doing it since the 60s, but that's not where my heart is.

I told them if they want to form a rock band as a side project, go for it, but I'm not interested. I'd rather play music I like, properly with good players, even if it is for free (for deserving audiences of course).

It it were not for the day job, I'd be playing whatever we could sell, and not enjoying it. Life's too short for that.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

John. Best thing for you to do is bite the bullet and bring the smallest synth you can find that has good bass sounds. I work with lots' of acoustic piano players that do this. It will keep you from beating your left hand to death each night and actually the bass sounds are very acceptable.

I built myself an extended range bass 20 years ago before you could buy one right off the shelf. Started out as a 7 string but I did not like the way it played so I cut it down to just 6 strings. I get a lot of calls to play with duos and trios, because I can solo in the upper register and sound like a guitar player. I can swap off with keyboard players who have a bass set up in the left hand and it is practically seamless. Lots of electronic keyboards these days let you split the keyboard for bass in the left hand and piano in the right. You have options.

The instrumentation in the group does not matter. What matters is if you have strong players on each instrument. The smaller the ensemble, the stronger the players need to be in order too support each other and solo to distribute the load for the gig.

The first player who can be cut in my experience is the drummer. I LOVE playing with no drummer. You still have a strong rhythm player in the bass no matter if it is the left hand of the keyboard or a bassist. If you have a guitarist then there is your rhythm also. Jazz history is full of beautiful sounding trios and duos with guitar handling all the rhythm. There was a time when guitar players actually knew how to play rhythm and played beautiful chord substitutions. This is becoming a lost art.

The best small group set up is keyboard, guitar and a strong solo instrument--maybe a multi-reed player who can play flute, sax and clarinet.

Duos--well you can't beat a beautiful sounding acoustic piano and any other instrument. You just have to play in a context of listening more so than trying to bang out things for people to dance to. Most of the gigs I work like this are band in the corner things for atmosphere.

Best to get the small group thing comfortable as most of the availiable good paying work these days is indeed duo/trio things.

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

Let's ask an in your face question here and try to answer truthfully. Which gets more bookings; the country band or a rock band? Which plays to larger audiences; a country band or a rock band? Which one can demand the higher contract fee; a country band or a rock band? Which is being left in the dust of advancing times; the country band or the rock band?

Count the businesses that have not kept up with what the customer wants, then do some comparisons with the ones that did adapt to see which ones are no longer in business.

Anyone who thinks he/she can buck the trend and not supply what the public wants, has their head in a fantasy bag. If you feel jilted, then change genres. I did and I am still playing in a band.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

There's no law that says music has to have a bass line. It took me a while to realize that. A listening audience can adapt to whatever you lay down, as long as you are playing well.

erik · Posted 13 Oct 2005 5:20 pm

Or you could buy midi pedals and play simple backing bass with your feet.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I think it's possible to have great music, with musical integrity, without a rhythm section, or any particular instruments at all. A self-accompanied singer can be great or awful, depending on their talent level and their ability to work within that format.

Some players can cover 2-3 parts convincingly. I have played with a husband-wife jazz-guitar/keys team who pull this off nicely. He's a tremendous jazz guitar player, and she plays keys, bass lines from a separate keyboard unit with her left hand (and sounds great), and sings in several languages. I have (edit - at times) joined them as a second guitar player, and sometimes the gig permitted a drummer, which is a nice luxury. But whatever they do, they work within the constraints nicely.

Or tell me that Charlie Hunter can't fully cover normal guitar parts + bass parts concurrently. He's tremendous. Others like Joe Pass come to mind.

But I often hear people attempt this and find themselves in over their heads. They're not a band, they're not a duo, they're not a single - neither fish nor fowl. I hear each person do 1-1/2 parts, which is to say they do 3/4 of what's needed on each one.

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules - just good or bad, and nobody can even agree on what that is. Like many here, I don't try to make a living at this now. I take gigs I like, and leave the rest. If the music ain't happening, by my standards, I'm outta there.

Final point. I disagree strenuously that it is necessary to pander to the public whim. I have seen bands come in and make an audience for what they do by their sheer musical power. That's when it's really happening, IMO.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 15 October 2005 at 10:48 AM.]

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Erik,
You stir up an old memory.
I worked my way through college by somehow convincing the Delta Chelsea Inn in Toronto to hire me as their lounge pianist from Tuesday through Friday afternoon.
On Friday night this cat came in, he played a fistful of piano, played foot pedals as you've described, and sang with a very nice rich voice. All the piano players in T.O. hated the guy. I was more or less in awe, and thankful for my weekday job, which taught me alot in the meantime.
Gotta roll with it sometimes. But, having said that, if you feel in your heart that the music ain't Makin' It..... it's time to Make a Mile...
-John

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Dave Mudgett makes a serious point about Charlie Hunter - chops matter. If you listen to Dave Easley play pedal steel with 3now4, you'll notice that there is no guitar player or keyboards, because Easley can cover all the rhythm parts himself and make it sound great. He can also solo for hours on end without repeating himself. We certainly can't all work hard enough and have the natural gifts to develop that level of talent, but one thing's for absolute sure - as long as you keep telling yourself that you can't cover rhythm parts on your pedal steel, you'll be absolutely right about that.

http://steelguitarmusic.com/music/daveeasley.html

[This message was edited by David Mason on 15 October 2005 at 04:21 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Very, VERY few players were given Fats Wallers left hand,
Or even Professor Longhairs etc for that matter.

So to cover a night with solos, comping and actual bassline type playing,
is not a cool thing in most cases.

There are many piano players who can do a
Piano, singer and one soloist gig pretty well.
But they ain't trying to roll a bassline all night.
Block chords and a few bass prep lines most of the night.

My oldest musical friend is a killer piano player,
and still prefers a bass; electric or acoustic, as 2nd instrument to join a duo.
(Oh yeah he ALSO is a killer electric bassplayer; ask John McGann or Chris Brooks.).

It just lifts the load much better,
2nd is a guitarist with a blocky chord thing in the lower registers,
but this is a DISTANT second place.

So if you thought the band sound went south
when the bassplayer was jetisoned,
well then walking seems not too far a move.

IT IS your left hand in play,
not this hornplayers.
Ya could have asked for the bassplayers pay, since he expected you to take his chair
AND yours!

( PS... this bassplayer appreciates your walking more than you know LOL.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 15 October 2005 at 05:04 AM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Its the difference in being an entertainer or just playing music. If your band is good you can play Mary Had A Little Lamb on stage with as many pieces as you want for as much money as you want. Playing musical notes on your instrument will not create demand for your band. The days of showing up over weight in sneakers and tee shirts playing Swing'n Doors is long over. Victor Borge played chops sticks on his piano to audiences all over the world and made alot of money.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 15 October 2005 at 10:33 PM.]

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