What comprises a 13th chord

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Can anyone enlighten me as to why some sources say that the 9th AND 11th must be included..?
I'm not talking practical guitar, but pure theory..
Basil

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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I believe that that the b7 is what really distinguishes the 6th and the 13th (the 13th should have it). The 9th and 11th are the stacked 3rds between b7 and 13, but I don't consider them required.

Rick Alexander · From: Florida, USA, R.I.P.

That's right - a 13th chord is a 6th chord with a dominant 7th - just as an 11th chord is a sus4th chord with a dominant 7th - and to get note-picky, a 9th chord is a "2nd" chord with a dominant 7th.

Basically, if the chord designation is 13th, 11th or 9th - the chord contains a dominant 7th.

Leon Grizzard · From: Austin, Texas, USA

A 13th chord is spelled 1,3,5,b7,9,11,13, (chord building by stacking thirds) but as a practical matter, that is too many notes to play at once, and so an abbreviated form is usually used. Obviously, for it to be a 13th you have to have the 13th, which is the same note as the 6th, although in theory an octave higher. A 6th chord is simply at major triad 1,3,5, with an added 6th. If you don't play a b7, you can't tell if the chord is meant to be a 13th or a 6th.

[This message was edited by Leon Grizzard on 22 April 2005 at 09:14 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've never seen an 11th in a real world 13th chord. I know that the theory books say it should be there, but in practice it never is. It throws the effect of the chord too far towards resolution.

I would spell the chord 1, 3, 5, b7, 9, 13. The 1, b7 and 13 provide the essence of the 13th chord sound.

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 22 April 2005 at 11:00 AM.]

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I use the 13 with the b7, 9, and 11 all the time. I tend to think of it mostly as an extended 11(sus) chord of some kind. I don't really know what I'd call it though. It works great as a V. I'd often morph it into another alt7 on my way to the I chord.

In my mind, a 13th is just a dom7 with a 6 somewhere. I don't think any jazz fakebook intends for you to play a 9,11,AND 13 when they're telling you to play a simple 13th chord.

[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 22 April 2005 at 12:27 PM.]

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Great thread. This is where it's AT! -GV

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

7 + 6 = 13

7 + 4 = 11

7 + 2 = 9

Not trying to be a smart@ss, but isn't it really this simple?

\
Terry

Bill McCloskey · Posted 22 Apr 2005 12:59 pm

I believe that if you want to designate that the 13th be played without the 9th and 11th then it should be listed as C7 +13. This would indicate a 1 3 5 b7 13. Bobbie's example I believe should be listed as C9th +13 which would be 1 3 5 b7 9 13. If it just says C13, than the chord is 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

I'm with b0b on this one and find that the 11th is impracticable, I wonder is it really intended to be there, and who says so?

I'd like an answer from any member that's a B Mus. or MA. or similar, I'm not wishing to detract from those who've already answered, but an authoritative answer would be a help.

The Royal School of Music "Rudiments and Theory of Music" (1938) states that any chord beyond dominant seventh only needs to contain the "Qualifier" i.e. the ninth is a dominant seventh plus a ninth, the eleventh is a dominant seventh plus an eleventh etc.
So I take it that theory in the US is different to theory in the UK ?
Surely that can't be... I know that in Jazz piano books and Guitar books, the 13th is frequently described as 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13..
but I have yet to find it in accredited theory books..

Maybe Prof. Mike Ihde could help ?
Basil

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Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Just a two year CCer here, but I'd agree with b0b for the second time in a more years than that. Here's a good link

and a good quote..

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

Here it is and the rule neccessarily has to be set in stone: A 9th assumes the dom 7 is there, an 11th assumes the dom 7 and 9th, and a 13th assumes the dom. 7th, 9th and 11th are all there.

Someone said that the correct name for a 13th without the 9th and 11th would be a (C)7 +13. That would be correct.

This is simple chord theory 101. I have played jazz piano and organ and guitar most of my life. I've never seen it any other way. If this wasn't the rule, how would we know when a chart did or didn't want the 9th or 11th tone used?

Sure, you can substitute in most band settings, ( I often do it, for example in a 1,6,2,5 turnaround when 13th chords are notated), but if a 13th doesn't include the 1,3,5,b7,9,11, and 13, it is not a true 13th chord, but a +13.

I'm not trying trying to be smart, but I teach 8 year old kids this stuff all the time and they have no problem with it. We adults, however, make things out to be a lot more difficult than they are.

The easiest way to understand chord theory from a visual standpoint is to count the chord on a keyboard where it is easy to see what is going on.

The only way anyone can have true command of improvisational playing is to have command of chord and scale theory, yet, as I witness all the time with my advanced students, it is the last thing anyone ever wants to learn.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

One thing to watch out for, though, is that some people write "+13" or "+9" etc. to mean "augmented 13" or "augmented 9" (just as "+5" often means augmented 5th, not just "add a 5th"). That's why, for greater clarity, some folks will write, for example, "C7 add 9" instead of "C7+9". The moral of the story is to look over the chart before you play it, and if you see any symbols like that, just doublecheck with the person who wrote the chart (or with your bandmates) on the proper interpretation of the symbols.

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

A dom 7 13 chord does NOT have to include the 9 and 11- as heard a zillion times from Joe Pass, Tal Farlow etc- G7 13 low to high: G F B E.

C7#9 and C7 9 would be better than "C7 add 9". The "add 9" is usually used for triads (like C E G D)- around Berklee, anyhow...
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Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 23 April 2005 at 07:10 AM.]

Bill McCloskey · Posted 23 Apr 2005 6:33 am

There seems to be two seperate but distinct discussions going on here.

One: What is the definition of a 13th chord.

Two: How is a 13th chord played or suggested when one is playing on an instrument that has limitations of some sort that would make it impossible to play, i.e what can be left out (5th, 9th 11th) in a playing situation and still suggest the flavor of the 13th chord.

As has been said, I believe it is chord theory 101 that states a 13th chord is 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13. That is straight forward. The question is how do you play that chord (or what do you substitute ) when you are playing on an instrument like a guitar that makes that chord impossible to play as written. Can you leave out the 9th and 11th? How about the 5th. What has to be there (b7, 13 root)?

These are two seperate discussions with 2 seperate answers, which I think is the genesis of the confusion here.

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

Jim Cohen, that is a good point and, of course, correct. As a rlue, the + would mean that all those tones are to be augmented, but it is not always notated correctly. Check your charts with reality.

John, you are also correct. As I said in my post, a dom7 13 chord means jusr that: a 7th chord with a 13th on top-no 9 or 11.

Bill, the bottom line is, while there is an absolute rule concerning the notes of a true 13th, we often substitute. I can't possibly be comping a full 13th chord on my left hand while soloing with my right.

Therefore, it is acceptable and typical to use a portion of the chord. Quite often the root is left out because it is being played by other instruments. This can even be done on a solo performance to a point.

The 5th and 3rd are the first to go, then the 11th and lastly the 9th. This, of course all depends on how many other instruments are there to cover. Most of the time, if you use the 7th tone plus the 13th, or in the case of a 9th or 11th chord, those tones, no one os going to notice. It is when you only play the major triad that it becomes noticeable.

Remember, musicians and magicians are closely related. There is a lot of slight-of-hand going on with both professions. It's how well we excecute that slight-of-hand that separates the pros from the wannabes. An understanding of this is an important thing to have in your bag of tricks.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

It sort of amuses me that there is a sense that there is exactly one, and only one, correct way to name chords according to the one and only 'true' music theory. It doesn't bother me, but if true, it is probably the only discipline in all of academia where only one theoretic approach exists. Even in science and mathematics, where rigor is supreme (really, the level of rigor in pure mathematics exceeds all other fields, IMO), there are frequently numerous 'correct' ways to notate things. IMO, these things are conventions, and may vary from one 'school of thought' to another and from one context to another.

If an extended chord name like a ninth or thirteenth always truly requires all of the stacked thirds to be present, there are a lot of authoritative texts out there which disagree. Let me give an example, this one from the venerable text Harmony - A Course of Study, by G.W. Chadwick, The B.F. Wood Music Co., Boston, MA, 1897 (Revised 75th Ed. - 1922). Chadwick was the Director of The New England Conservatory of Music at this time, and this book was used to teach Harmony at the Conservatory for decades. I quote from page 68:

"The chord of the dominant ninth is formed by adding a third to the seventh in in its highest voice. In four-voiced harmony the original fifth is often omitted, the third at times, but never the seventh. The ninth of this chord (the third above the seventh) must not appear less than nine degrees above the root. ..."

Chadwick proceeds to show some unacceptable permuations of 4 stacked thirds, but then makes the caveat "inadmissible, although freely used in modern compositions". There is no discussion here about changing the name of the chord, merely different ways of voicing it.

This of course doesn't mean that this point of view is 'correct' either, but I think it is hard to dispute this as a legitimate 'music theoretic' interpretation of the ninth chord. Generations of music scholars going through the Conservatory were trained with this book. On the thirteenth chord, I rarely ever hear anybody on any instrument play the fully-voiced 13th chord. This goes to the question "What is the purpose of a theory?". If it is just to lay down a totally fixed, rigid, one-to-one mapping between objects and names for them, that's one point of view. But in any area I'm familiar with, a theory is something to provide some sort of structure to actual objects. In my view of the world, a theory is only as useful as how well it describes the real world. In science, theories are taken up, used where appropriate, and changed when needed. I realize this text is old, and some have changed this convention and provided a more one-to-one mapping to reduce ambiguity, but there are others who haven't. In particular, most books I've read on jazz guitar harmony use Chadwick's point of view.

Fundamentally, I think this sort of notation is simply a way to communicate. As long as everybody is on the same page, it doesn't matter which system one uses. Nor is there one absolutely 'correct' system. Just my point of view here.

BTW, if this Harmony text seems hopelessly out of date, note that it is still referenced in modern music theory literature. Here's a recent example from the online journal Music Theory Online: http://www.societymusictheory.org/mto/issues/mto.04.10.2/mto.04.10.2.aarden_hi ppel_frames.html.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Y'know, after reviewing my responses and others, I don't think we've actually hit basil's question on the nail head yet. Let me try again. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think you're asking why some sources insist that an extended dom7th chord must include all stacked thirds. I can't speak authoritatively, but in the old style (ala Chadwick) notation, there are many permutations of different things that can be written as extended chords, with no simple way to distinguish them. The more modern notation, which writes partially-voiced extended dominant chords as dom7 add (color-tones), removes all ambiguities. For example, if you want the dom13 with just the 11 removed, you can simply write dom7 add 9 add 13. This of course doesn't really address permutations of triad 1, 3, 5 omissions, but does precisely specify the color tones. Is this the type of reasoning you're looking for?

I've never seen it used, but is the "minus" or "subtract" notation ever used? The example I gave above would be more compactly written "dom13 subtract 11", and it is equally unambiguous.

I still argue that this is not the only way to notate, but I do see a practical line of reasoning to insist on it in practice. Let me attempt another practical explanation why the 'old' system was able to get away with this more easily. These folks didn't read via chord charts. They didn't need to distinguish between a dom7 add 13 and a 'true' stacked-thirds 13th chord, because they assumed that everybody was reading the exact notes on the staff. The theory of harmony was just that, the theory of how chords should be constructed and used. The staff was the one and only notation vehicle. Clearly, that's not always true these days.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 23 April 2005 at 06:02 PM.]

Leon Grizzard · From: Austin, Texas, USA

I once read something to the effect that in the sheet music world, the indicated chords are what some staff piano player figured out as an accompaniment, and may include many chords that work fine for piano, but may not work that well for other instruments. And that often, a substantially different progression has evolved or become accepted among players.

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

The question was, what comprises a 13th chord.

I and some others have answered that question accurately. Do any of us actually play the full 13th and does it matter? Seldom, if ever and no.

Chord theory was developed around the piano keyboard. The actual way that some of these chords are played on a guitar, psg or other stringed instruments would, by correct theory, not be those chords because of the positioning of some of the notes.

This ain't nuclear physics. It's about playing relevant music. Bands like Dave Matthews came out with songs that had chords which defy nomenclature. Are they wrong to play them? Of course not. There has been some very innovative and inspiring music come out of this newer generation. I often write without considering what chords are being played until it comes time to chart it out. Sometimes I have to invent a name for them.

Still, having a sound knowledge of actual chord theory is an essential part of session playing and progressive improvisation. If we don't have it, we are limiting our abilities and doing ourselves and injustice.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Webb, I reread your first post and see that I missed this sentence:

"If this wasn't the rule, how would we know when a chart did or didn't want the 9th or 11th tone used?"

Sorry, that did answer Basil's question, which was why do some insist that a 13th chord must include all stacked thirds. I agree with you that it makes sense in many instances to insist on this. My only point was that I have seen plenty of authoritative music theorists like Chadwick notate partial extended dom7 chords by the name of the highest extension, without reference to the missing stacked thirds. My answer to how they could do this unambiguously is that they get the context of which notes to omit by reading them directly on the staff. The chord symbol is simply the way they view the chord musically, not a chord construction aid. Basil, that may account for the conflict you note in your second post.

BTW, I said that I never saw anybody use the (subtract) instead of (add) operators. Well, I was wrong. Reading through Harmony - Book 2 by Dr. Bill Fowler, Downbeat-Maher Publications, 1985, I note that on page 94, he specifically discusses notating 13th chords without the root, 3, 5, or 9 as 13th (omit root, 3, 5, 9 respectively). In other words, Fowler considers the basic chord type a 13th, and deals with the problem of unambiguously notating the missing notes by subtracting them. Everything in this book is staff-notation and piano-based, there are no guitars involved here. This is strictly a jazz harmony book. I realize now I've seen this notation elsewhere also. I'm not saying this is superior in any way to the notation method Webb uses, and is almost certainly less standard. But it does get around the ambiguity problem Webb mentioned. My personal view on this is that I prefer to view 1, 3, 5, b7, 13 as a 13th chord, since the 13 is the leading voice in this chord to me. So I like the (omit) idea. To my ears, this sounds more like a dom13 chord than a dom7 chord. But there's no problem viewing it as a dom7 add 13. They're mathematically equivalent.

My final point is that this is largely semantic. Webb, I can't say "I've never seen it any other way", because I have. I'm not trying to rile anybody up, really. I'm trying to understand the different ways people view this myself - this has been very instructive for me. I've tried to show alternative approaches from clearly well-respected sources. The issue is which convention will a set of musicians employ to communicate with each other. That's the only tie-in to math and science I made earlier - scientists and mathematicians also need to agree on notational conventions for the same reason, so they can effectively communicate complex ideas to each other. Different groups use different conventions there also. This goes directly to the conflicts that Basil mentioned in his second post. That said, I agree that probably most jazz musicians (certainly most I know) use the method Webb discusses.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 23 April 2005 at 11:26 PM.]

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

E–B–D–E–F#–G#–B–C#–E–G# = 10-string
1–5–b71–9–-3-–5–13–1–3 or
E––-D––––F#-G#-B-C#-E-G# = 8-string
I like to refer to my tunings as E9/13. If I am wrong, WHY?
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“Big John” Bechtel
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence

[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 25 April 2005 at 08:31 PM.]

Michael Barone · From: Downingtown, Pennsylvania

Here's my take. At a minimum, all you need to make a 13th chord is the Dom7th, 10th and 13th. The 10th is actually the 3rd placed above the 7th. This applies if you allow the bass (that someone else is playing) to define the chord. For example, strings 5,6,9 with 'A pedal' on the 3rd fret would be G13, but if the bass player plays a C# the chord would be C#7+9. Jazz keyboardists take advantage of this knowledge frequently.

Forgive me if this is rambling, but . . .
My favorite is the 4-string grip, 4,5,6,9 with the 'A pedal', on E9. For a while I tried lowering string 10 to 'A' to get the 13th in B6 mode, but I switched back to B-Bb, because I found that I hardly used it, and I gave up too much flexibility to gain a "C6 sounding" 13th chord on an E9 neck.

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Mike Barone
Sho-Bud Pro-1, Nashville 112, Goodrich Pedal, BJS 15/16 Bar

Drew Howard · From: 48854

Never heard of a 13th chord having a 9th or 11th scale tone. Adding those notes would change the name of the chord.

On guitar and steel all you need is three notes.

b7 1 13

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden D-10 8/8, Fessenden SD-12 5/5 (Ext E9), Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

So let's say we're playing "Help Me Make It Through The Night" in G-
G C D G G C D G
C G A D G C D G
Then the "thirteenth" chord would be G, right?

Seriously, it's fascinating to see the variety of takes on what would seem to be a pretty basic concept. The difference between theoretical spelling and creative application would seem to constitute an element of personal style, yes?

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

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