Smoking Ordinance

Leon Grizzard · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Here in Austin we go to vote on a new proposed smoking ordinance, which will outlaw smoking in bars. I have two questions: (1) does anyone have actual experience of the effect on little dives and other marginal bars; and (2) Out of curiousity, how do you keep your table or place at the bar if you are alone, and go outside to smoke?

Jack Latimer · From: Ontario, Canada

Where I live in Canada this type of law is becoming quite common. Where it hurts the most is when one community allows smoking and a next door community doesn't. The bars really feel this. However, the Governement is stepping in to ban all smoking in public places throughout the Province which will put all bar owners back on a level playing field. There is an initial loss of business, but in time business will return. As a non smoking musician, I love playing in smoke free rooms. It's nice not to be coughing your lungs out the next morning.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

The smoking ban was implemented here in Florida last year. "Bars" that do not serve food are exempt.

From what I've seen and been told by some restaurant owners is it affected them for a little while but it went back to "normal" business.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Personally, I don't smoke. But I would think that smoking ordnance (especially unexploded ordnance) would be very dangerous (even if you don't inhale)

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 18 April 2005 at 05:42 PM.]

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

Some of the bar tenders in small bars I have been to just laugh when you ask about the smoking ordinance...but just try to light up a cigar...

Chris Schlotzhauer · From: Colleyville, Tx. USA

I played a show in Lincoln, NE at the Zoo Bar this January. They had just passed a no smoking law. The zoo bar has been there for 40-50 years, I'm not sure exactly. I asked the club manager how the no smoking ban was going. He took me outside to the front and pointed to the pile, and I mean a pile of butts on the snow mound by the curb. This is from the patrons going outside the club to smoke. The snow was brown and gross. He just laughed because the brilliant minds in city hall didn't think about that mess THEY will have to clean up. I've seen the same situation at other clubs. I hope Austin doesn't pass this stupid law. I'm not a smoker, but a bar is the only place where adults can be adults.

Keith Cordell · From: San Diego

On the other side of this I must say that as a player I look forward to playing in non-smoking clubs, as I am allergic to nicotine and feel like I have pneumonia all the time when clubs allow smoking. I just can't figure out why people want to smoke to begin with.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I'm with you Keith. The best thing that ever happened to N.Y. state bars was to pass the smoking ordinance. Far more people who find smoking a health hazzard now come to the bars where as before they stayed away. Smoking WILL kill you! When we have to go to Pennsylvannia to play in the smokey bars I feel like I have pneumonia for the next two weeks. Smoking is a disgusting habit and thank God its on the way out in our society.

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

The entire province of BC, (that's about an hour west of Ontario) has a non-smoking policy in public buildings. Ninety percent of privately owned offices are also non-smoking. There was a big howl from the bar owners at first; however, all is peaceful now.

The big tobacco companies put on a big doomsday advertising campaign out here but it didn't work.

I too agree that, as a non-smoker, it's rather enjoyable to sit in bar now and be able to see who is sitting three tables away.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

John Rosett · From: Missoula, MT

i'm all for banning smoking in bars. a dear friend of mine, and a great bass player died of lung cancer at 43. he never took a drag off of a cigarette in his life-it was the second hand smoke that got him. when i used to smoke, i went outside out of consideration for my bandmates.

JERRY THURMOND · From: sullivan mo u.s.a.

The St Louis Steel Conv is going to be smoke free starting this year. Lucky for me I quit last Sept, but I still feel for the ones that smoke it makes it tough on them. Jerry ps this was not Scotty"s doing, it was hotel policy.

[This message was edited by JERRY THURMOND on 18 April 2005 at 04:56 PM.]

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Due to the rules of the hotel and complaints by some attendees, the TSGA Jamboree went non-smoking two years ago, and there was a big brouhaha over it; there were people swearing to never return, imaginary Constitutional rights being violated, etc., along with forecasts of doom about the show going down forever.

Incidentally, the last two years have been the best attended shows in TSGA history.

However the issue in Austin is a different one. Many of the clubs affected by the upcoming ban are ones that do marginal business but are incubators for upcoming bands that don't have a builtup following yet and are struggling to create a fanbase. Labors of Love by owners who dig the music and helping the scene stay alive out of their own resources. Any drop in attendance in clubs like these can be disastrous since they don't have the deep pockets required to keep the doors open during the downtimes.

Sure, in time business picks up again somewhat regardless of the ban or no, but industry-wide some venues will fail and their loss will be detrimental to many players who were the clubs' constituencies.

Bar personnel are also divided on the matter, but bartenders and waitresses I've talked to say that smokers stayed longer, drank more, and tipped better than the non-smokers. Generally, they felt non-smokers were health oriented and so went home early so they could get up and jog a couple miles in the morning before going to work. Or they simply don't go out to clubs anymore regardless of how they want to dictate the business practices of others.

I'm a non-smoker and it doesn't bother me if a club has that policy. In fact I enjoy playing an NS club. But I'd like the decision to be made by the owner and not the government. People should let the marketplace decide... if it can be shown that more money can be made if a club is NS, owners would be clamoring to make their club that way.

One more thing about the Austin deal. There's a NS agreement in effect in this city now, which was supposed to be a compromise between the factions. Dog gone if the non-smoking crowd didn't accept the compromise, and then before the deal even was fully realized, pushed ahead with their demands for a total shut down of the smoking clubs regardless.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

ajm · From: Los Angeles

"The snow was brown and gross. He just laughed because the brilliant minds in city hall didn't think about that mess THEY will have to clean up."

Who was more brilliant? The minds in city hall that have to clean up the mess, or the people who made the mess by littering and breaking the law?

"....a bar is the only place where adults can be adults."

That explains why a lot of the adults I see in public act like children.

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Artie McEwan

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

Well, I smoke, tho much less than a few years ago. In California you can't smoke in any building. There are corporations that even in open air allow smoking only in a small area. There are even whole areas of beaches that have forbidden it.

To be honest, I quite like to go to a food restaruant where there is no smoking, as well as other events.

At home I only smoke in my garage or outside, but not in the house. It does make the house cleaner without butts every where.

The anti smoke-whackos will eventually find a case where a smoker 20 miles away was responsible for a 2 year old having health problems.

I agree as a smoker I should consider other peoples aversion to it and adjust accordingly. Beyond that, get off my back.

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

I used to smoke many, many moons ago, but I still always respected the rights of people who didn't smoke and would'nt smoke around them.

It never made sense to me to allow smoking in public buildings. Why would we have laws that give rights to the offenders? No one ever hurt anyone by not smoking, yet non-smokers have always had to put up with inhaling 2nd hand smoke if they want to go anywhere that smoking is allowed.

If a woman is raped, we don't say it is the rapist's right to rape her and that if she didn't want to be raped she shouldn't put herself in a situation where she would be raped. If someone is robbed, we don't say it was the robber's right to steal. If someone gets murdered, we don't go out and stick up for the murderer (unless his name is OJ Simpson). Legalized smoking is a double-standard whose logic has always escaped me and I am glad to see that it is finally being curttailed. I understand that it may be soon to come in PA, too and I am glad.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I have a young friend that just got back from N.Y. city. He stopped by a club (hoping to get some "action") because people seemed to be flowing out the front door. "This must be a happening place", he thought. When he went inside, there was hardly anyone there! It was only when he went back outside that he noticed everyone standing in front of the place was smoking! (LOL!) What a hoot!

I find there's nothing more irritating than having someone at the next table twisting caps off of Evian bottles all night! If they would just ban smoking, cell phones, food, alcohol, carbonated beverages, bottled water, snacks, and gambling from all night clubs, think how much fun we'd have! (We could all just sit home and play on the computer!

)

Auset Sarno · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

We had our wedding reception at a local bar that's typically a heavy smoking establishment. Neither Brad nor I are smokers, so we made it a non-smoking event. Lots of food, free-flowing draft and music all night long. It was a fantastic party and everyone thanked us for the smoke-free space. The smokers were especially grateful and said that they forgot how nice it felt to be in a clear room - and to experience music without the fear of someone setting fire to your hair while dancing is a definite plus. The room was lit in a whole different way - energized.

And as musicians seeking exposure, you grab whatever gigs you can, in all kinds of situations - most are toxic. Since we don't have drums in our band, we through in Borders, as well as, grab as many festivals as we can. Playing outside is amazing!

Auset

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

IMO, the deal is this: The right to be free of smoke outweighs the right to smoke as you please. It's rather clear that this stuff may kill you. Maybe the statistical arguments about this were a bit weak 20-30 years ago, but it's pretty clear now.

It's not really a huge deal to step outside for a smoke. But it is a huge deal if you're forced to be inside a smoky building and it makes you sick. And don't tell me that nobody has to be inside a smoky building - the people that work a bar and band members that play in a bar obviously need to be there to make their living. If there was work-environment smoke in a lab I was working in, at the level of the bars I play in, they'd make me wear some type of breathing apparatus.

Look, I used to smoke, but do you think I subjected my kid to it? The answer is no. Do you force your family to be around your smoke? Why would you expect other people who have even less interest in you to tolerate that from you?

Really, this is a dead issue - it's coming, and there's nothing anybody can do about it. This is just common sense. IMO.

Edit, so I don't ignore the original question. The places I've been where smoking ordinances were put in place actually increased their business in the long haul. Really, a large majority of people overall do not smoke, and find it much more attractive to go out when the places are smoke-free. There's a time period of adjustment, when new patrons discover the no-smoking environment. But if you can't smoke in any bar, then it spreads out the burden.

I also think the technology exists to effectively remove smoke from the air, but when I've seen it used, it's not usually implemented effectively by using enough units and replacing filters frequently. I would be just as happy with an air-quality standard, but it's to difficult to implement, IMO. So we come down to banning smoking in bars.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 18 April 2005 at 09:36 PM.]

Larry Hicks · From: Alabama, USA

Ever had two or three weeks off from playing down at the joint and then open one of your equipment or instrument cases in a nice clean room at home?

Wow! I'd rather smell a REAL ashtray.

[This message was edited by Larry Hicks on 18 April 2005 at 09:35 PM.]

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

The reason most hotels won't suck the smoke out of the air is that the heat(or air conditioning)would go out with it. it would cost them money to re-heat(or cool) the air. Most owners have managers, so they don't have to put up with the smoke. Some of them sit in their offices and watch a serveilance camera. It's been left up to them for decades(actually centuries) and they won't do anything unless forced to.

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

It's about time!!

Jim Hartley · From: SC/TN

In rereading the original post, I realized that I misread it so I have deleted my reply.

[This message was edited by Jim Hartley on 19 April 2005 at 06:25 AM.]

Chris Schlotzhauer · From: Colleyville, Tx. USA

Read about Austin's vote here:
http://www.keepaustinfree.com/

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2005-04-15/music_feature.html

[This message was edited by Chris Schlotzhauer on 19 April 2005 at 07:43 AM.]

Leon Grizzard · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Like the last time this topic was raised, we have gotten more editorializing that actual observations of the economic effects of smoking bans on smaller live music venues. I guess I was expecting to hear more gloom and doom.

The vote sort of raises questions about how to vote in a domocracy: the greater good; market place principles; my own self interest as non smoking patron and musician; less government; leave the music scene alone; and so on.

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