The Numbering system..actual experience...

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

update for all that care..

You must read this if you are going to respond....

this thread was about a Bass player who came to a LIVE audition at one of our gigs. His resume was very long and according to the player he had tons of experience on Bass and playing Country Music.

He was invited up for 2 songs that he picked..
one was the traditional Hank Jr's Family Tradition..in G..

We were just about to kick it off and he asked Buddy, one of the singers , for the number chart to the song..not the intro..the whole dang song..

When I learned of this during our next break I told Buddy he should have said..

9 1 1

cause he was in trouble...

Now from this little story you will read below how I am a total loon, self serving, I am against the number system ,I was not being " Bandmate" enough , I didn't help a fellow player, and someone even states that I am the self appointed East Coast authority on music..

Talk about a thread gone wild..I imaging that almost everyone that posted never read the initial post..only tagged on to someone elses post who also didn't read it...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 11 February 2005 at 03:06 AM.]

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 11 February 2005 at 03:07 AM.]

ROBERT MYERS · From: HEDGESVILLE, W.VA. USA

Tony, I like the number system myself and just last week I told the guys in the band that I was going to teach it to them. It is a lot better to tell them it's a 1 1 2 5 5 than c c f g g and it's so easy to write a chart during break for a song that you want to try or had a request for and it will fit any chord you want to do the song in. If the guy is a good bass player don't let the fact that he knows the number system keep you from using him. I just started using it 5 years ago and I'll be 57 in march so you're never to old to learn. Also it was taught to me by a 15 year old banjo picker that had only been playing for 2 years. You think I didn't feel stupid. Have a good one and keep picking.

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Bob Myers Pedalmaster Classic 8 & 7 Profex2 Nashville 400 Digitech RP 100

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Robert, it has nothing to do with the numbering system..and anyway..using #s is NOT the Nashville Numbering system..the Nville system USES #'s..

where we came from is if you want to play in an established Country Band..and you don't know Family Tradition, and worse, have to ask how it goes....

"You're on the wrong Bandstand"...

Numbering systems only advises you of the structure..it does not inform you on how to actually play the song..where the stops and accents are...

It got worse..Our Bass player ( who has relocated to Oklahoma this past week) Leslie Turner, plays a 5 string. He actually said to Buddy later on that he got confused with the 5th string as he only plays a 4 string..and this..coming from a supposed Bass player...

HUhhh !!!??? !!!

we'll pass thank you very much....

Don't get me wrong, we, (I) have been charting using numbering systems for years..but if someone wants to sit in with us and I have to write a chart for Family Tradition..It ain't gonna happen...

For a working Country Band , Family Tradition is like drawing breath..

thats all she wrote Luther..

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 January 2005 at 11:30 AM.]

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

great one, Jim

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Tony, I'm sorry, but in my opinion your dead wrong. The number system is not only used by Nashville studio players and road musicians, but by the jazz community, and rock and blues communities. Its a universal system understood all over the world and based on interval theory. I have quit bands and walked out of auditions because of amateur musicians who didn't know the numbers. A sixth minor is a sixth minor in any key. Everyone in our band except the drummer understands the number system. Once the key is named its easy to transpose. I find that the amateur players are unable to transpose a 3 minor in D (F# minor) to a 3 minor in Bb (D minor) in the blink of an eye because they've failed to take the time to study chord theory and note intervals. I wouldn't waste my time playing with anyone who didn't
undedrstand interval theory.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Kevin..where ya goin' dude...?

Where did I state that using #'s was not a good thing?

I am a proponent of the numbering system (s)..and fully understand intervals..

But if you are seeking a gig and sitting in with a Country Band and claim you are very familiar with these tunes..and have to ask about a Hank Jr. tune..you're in the wrong place looking for the wrong gig...

I could have easily yelled out 1, 4, 1, 5, blah blah blah..but thats not the issue here...and I was on the oppostie side of the stage. he was standing stage far left, next to Buddy who's singing..so should Buddy have been calling out numbers to him while he's singing ? At some point experience and hearing familiar intervals must prevail...thats why they call us bandstand musicians...no ? yes?

I mean we had about 90 seconds for him to come up, swap musicians and play again to about 200 on the dance floor...

He picked the tunes..not us..he said he knew them...he was wrong..

My intital statement holds firm and true..if you claim you are an experienced Country musician and have to ask the numbers for a Hank song..it's...

9 1 1

So you're on the bandstand and invite a player..he tells you he is very familiar with your set list....then you start the set..you call "Stompin at the Savoy"..he says..oh I know that one......how does it go ?..

Are you not gonna take a step back and say ..Huhhh ?

it's a story dude....a true story that we are still havin' fun with back here in NC...

oh, and last time I checked there were no relative minor 6ths in the Hank tune...

ok..an just for good measure..we play several Paisley tunes..Part II is my favorite..I could chart this tune for anyone..using our famous numbers..but if the player is not familiar with the song, voicings /phrasings etc..they may play Part II with the band but they will NOT be playing Part II the song....thats what I'm talkin' about here...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 January 2005 at 11:53 AM.]

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Tony, I guess that I would have to agree with you from a COUNTRY stand point that Family Tradition is a standard. But I don't see anything wrong with asking how the song is going to be intro'd.

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

Tony,
if youre passing though West Virginia, I will play your hank for you on the bass and yes I agree the normal vintage 1,4,5 stuff one should know. take care joe

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Tony, I can play country very well, but there are several flavors of country,
and though I have played Family Tradition...
it has been decades since I did it last.

If I had the number chart I could play the whole gig, without a rehearsal on 90% of the tunes, and you would be happy. The kicks and feel are pretty standard and the drummer would prep me well. Eyes and ears open, off we go.

But there are A LOT of songs out there, and not all bands play Family Tradition.
I have played much more Hank Sr. than Jr.
There is a good bit of country over here, but I don't remember hearing Family Tradition here.

Me, I get confused when I only have 4 strings.. I like 6...

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 January 2005 at 01:31 PM.]

ROBERT MYERS · From: HEDGESVILLE, W.VA. USA

Hey Tony I'm sorry to get you upset but from what I read you had a problem with the numbers not the song. Yea I agree with you that he should know the song if he has played any country at all but then again there are songs that I knew 20 or 30 years ago that just don't pop in my head on the spur of the moment but if someone says it goes like this, well you get the point....Gotta got plow snow

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Bob Myers Pedalmaster Classic 8 & 7 Profex2 Nashville 400 Digitech RP 100

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Not an issue guys..

I guess we were caught off guard by someone who claimed he knew our list..claimed he could play..and then came up short...and he even picked family Tradition to play..

We don't use charts..at all..I suppose we could..but we don't..too many songs in the hamper...

I may chart a song we are learning..but thats where it ends..

Like many bands out there..we have a set list with the keys..and off we go..

Now playing Jazz tunes, or standards..thats a totally different gig..different world...those are gigs where the rubber meets the road...

Our set list is not difficult by any imagination for any experenced bandstand player..maybe some of the parts and solo's will get turned around but all in all an experienced player would fit right in..

The issue here was this guy put his ego ahead of his performance..especially claiming the 5 string deal confused him..Me, I wouldn't have said that to anyone even if it was true.. Using Kevins theoretic terminology..it's a B under the E..you either play up the scale from the root..or down..this is not brain science here.

Our band is starting to get some recognition in the area , from hard work and playing in tune I suppose. This guy came on strong and left with his tail between his legs..

The way I see it is if he was confused with the B under the E..no theoretical chart on the planet would have saved him..

What he should have done was to tell us that night that he was not comfortable and would like to come out and jam with us during the week..That would have been fine..we would have been fine with it..but instead he made like he was gonna be the Bass player from Memphis..maybe even show up our gal Bass player..who by the way is totally awsome..and has been playing several Insruments her entire life..and very well..natural musician...

You guys are all welcome to come sit in..just don't ask me to chart Family Tradition !

off to the gig

Happy Saturday night..

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 January 2005 at 02:17 PM.]

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 January 2005 at 02:18 PM.]

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

I guess I have used the number system for the last 40 years, from NY state to California, there has never been a question of what it means, not only in the chords to a song, but what key it starts in.

Some years ago we had an old time fiddler come up. He called the name of the song and said "two up" and kicked it off. One needs to be familiar with that numbering system.

Up means sharps, down means flats. Unspoken, fingers pointed up means sharps, fingers pointed down means flats. I suspect most of the old timers here know that.

So when the fiddler said two up, we knew immediatly the key was D. Had he said nothing and pointed two fingers up in the air, we would also have known the key was D.

Of course, there are not enough fingers on one hand to show a Bbmb5b7 but that chord goes by so fast it doesn't give the listeners eyes time to cross.

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

I would say it depends on what song you are doing.Years back when the group Chicago came out with Color My World the band i was with at the time wrote out the chords for me and i had to learn it on the band stand.Who ever plays that knows it is about all major 7th's and a 9th chord.I learned Rainy Night In Georgia on the band stand also.Good thing most people who go out to night clubs are tone deaf.If you play steel try reading the chords or number system and not lose your place on the neck.LOL.Have to love those kind of pickers who give you time to get the melody in your head and remember the chords.We were on the road all the time and i had to learn every thing on the band stand.The guitar or bass player would learn it first as they could do it in the back seat of a car,bus or what ever.They were real pros.

Bill Myrick · From: Pea Ridge, Ar. (deceased)

Every now and then one of the "good ole boys" from this area shows up to take his turn singing at the "Country Your Way" gig at the senior center and he'll come on stage and without even saying what the song is or in what key, he'll say something like "ok guys-- g-c lets go" and of coarse he always started himself playing rythm and started singing then we'd pick up on it. Finally it dawned on me what he was trying to convey-- he wanted a 55-11 intro, coarse we had no idea what speed, etc *LOL* takes all kinds to enjoy life !!

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

I have to agree with Kevin and Tony on this one. If you're a supposed country player, you should know Family Tradition whether you know the number system or not period. You wouldn't believe how many guys I've run into right here in Nashville that's been here a very long time that have very little concept of the number system. I knew the number system long before I could even play a PSG or even tune it correctly. Some guys tend to try to watch someone on the bandstand to "see" where the song is going instead of using their ears. It's just a bad habit and laziness to keep you from learning it. It's so simple and so necessary. As for a bass player being confused about a five string bass, I can't figure that one out at all. That again is so simple to understand but some guys get stuck in one way to do something and are too lazy to learn something new or different. They come back with this "I'm a country bass player." stuff as an excuse to not know something that's not 2/4 or a 4/4 shuffle.

Buddy Carter · From: Spring Grove (Chicago), IL

When I first got a 5-string bass I spent a solid month relearning it; not the tuning, but the right hand grip. It felt different enough to give me fits until I got used to the different right hand reach. I wonder if that's what your guy meant about the 5-string confusing him?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Unless you go for the 5th low string,
the "feel" will be the exact same..
IF you don't look at the neck.

I imagine the cats in Bakersfiled have a different bunch of standards than the cats in Nashville.
Maybe Family Tradition is played with the same regularity, but as I noted above.

Not all country scenes are the same for the "Standard set list",
and it would be damned boring if it was.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I guess this one will drag on a just a bit..

here's my take..
I have been on the bandstand for several decades across several states..

I doubt I am better than many..but probably no worse than most...I have been playing gigs on Steel, Tele's and Bass , playing our beloved Country Music ( and more ) for easily 30 years...

Family Tradition, like many Country Tunes..is a given..it's a tune where the crowd yells back all the phrases..They are into it..I am not a Hank Jr fan by any stretch..but over here in the USA if you arre making the claim that you play Country Music and HAVE been playing Country Music for years..it would be wise NOT to ask anyone the chords to this song..or how it goes...numbers or not..Does coming face to face with destiny come to mind here ?

Now the Bass thing..

with all due respect..if you can play a 4 string Bass, (under the 5th fret please) and understand the intervals, which one would need to understand if they claimed to play by numbers anyway, then the 5th string is not an issue..it's an extension..

I play a 4 string Fender J Bass which I love, but when I do get a chance to play a 5 string I find it fun..it offers a different opportunity to express..it's a B under the E ..it's just another interval..if one understands E,A,D and G..(4ths) then I find it most incredible that B under E would be confusing...unless of course..understanding the E,A,D,G part is a hoax..

just my take..and final comment on this nutty issue I started for fun anyway..

"Yeh..I can play all the tunes by numbers, but don't ask me what they are so YOU can play them"...

oh yeh..one last comment on our little pal who told us he was a player..

He asked us to give him our entire working song list and he would learn all the songs just like the records in less than a week..

One of the guys asked him.."What apout the songs that are not on the list ?"

he said something like " Professionals don't stray from the list"...

thats pretty much where I walked.....

"Can you guys play Louie Louie" ?

" Yeh..but it's not on the list so take a hike"...

waddya' make of that Luther...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 January 2005 at 02:59 AM.]

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Isn't that why the song's called "Heartaches by the numbers"?

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Hey guys that was probably my BEST line of the year, delivered in January! Did only Howard get it (or are the rest of you either too polite to mention it or still groaning?)

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

V7. eh, you sly dog...
I prefer the Berklee number system
I II II Iv V Vi VII I

Funny when you yell them onthe band stand
they sound the same....

James Lutz · From: Wisconsin

Jim,

I got it, but then my wife is a bass player and I've been hearing about the "Bass Players Highway" for many years now. (Route 5)

Tony, I guess if I understand your last post correctly, I would disagree with the part about yeh I know the numbers but not so I can teach you, or however you phrased it. It sounds like you and I have been around the same situations for about the same length of time. I just figure that by being on the bandstand for that many years, part of my job is to give whoever is on the bandstand with me at the time the numbers should the need arise. Yes, sometimes it is really frustrating, especially when I have to turn around and yell numbers at someone who has been playing longer than me, been in the band longer than me and still can't remember the changes to the same songs we play every single week. That is extremely frustrating. But for me to draw a hard line, no matter how much I'd like to, only makes the song worse. The point of it all is to make the music good. Everything else is personality issues. On the bandstand, the music comes first, so whatever pride I have to swallow, however hard I have to bite my tongue, I do that to get everyone through the song as best as possible. It's far from a perfect world and the business is filled with players from all backgrounds with all kinds of personal history and it all has to come together on the bandstand one way or another.

[This message was edited by Jim Lutz on 25 January 2005 at 07:12 AM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

first off..Jimbeaux.., I too will be dominant this year..but still trying to find my relatives..

Jim..It's not about teaching..of course I could have given him hand signals with fingers flying..but how do you do that and play Pedal Steel ? How does a lead singer yell over the numbers while singing..? How does a Lead Tele picker flash finger signs while chickin' pickin" ?

This whole conversation was and is about a so called player who responded to our add..told us he was well versed and experienced in our set list..sat in with us..and then proceeded to ask us the chords to a song that he picked and said he knew..

he wanted the numbers..to a song he told us he knew..the song has 3 stinkin chords !

and thats where I wished he asked me..I would have said...

9 1 1

Do you guys have number charts for every song you do ? Ready to hand out to someone who wants to sit in ?

Or do you expect a player who tells you he knows how to play and is very familiar with what you do...to actually play..?

Where I come from you do not get on the bandstand and sit in..if you can't do at the very minimum what the band is already doing...

A gig is not a Steel show where you may prepare a set list with charts for the house band...

dominant tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 January 2005 at 08:25 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

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