Why are drummers always too loud?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

John, yes and no

Les Green · From: Jefferson City, MO, R.I.P.

I long for the good ol' days when the rhythm section consisted of a Martin (non-electric) and a dog house bass.................

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Les, been there done that.
My 54' Kay is a bit better than a doghouse though.

It's just these days the crowds are bigger and the rooms noisier, even when they are just listening.

And we don't need to gather round 1 old ribbon mic and hope to be heard.

John Floyd · From: R.I.P.

David
Some of what you said here makes good sense and Some I disagree with, maybe it is the difference in cultures and a difference in situation. I too am a sound man as well as being a player with a degree in Electronics 40+ years experience in Underwater Sound, but Sound nevertheless.

I wouldn't last very long if I went up tweaked somebody's amp Like , Herby Wallace. I mention Herby because he is a regular on our Show every three months. Herby is dynamic in his playing and gets a great tone, he requires lots of headroom. First thing Herby and no other player wants is to hear themselves in the monitors, most don't want any effects. Professional players in this country want to be in control of how they sound, it is a big part of their total package and in some cases their trademark.

My point is, being in control of the quality of their sound is part of the job of a pro player. Where they do it good or bad is their responsibility and is perceived to be a mark of their ability. I don't want to assume the responsibility of any players Sound especially a Hall of fame member and I'm sure they feel the same. I would never set myself up to be Judge and executioner of a players sound, especially one of world renown.

I recently had a player that normally had a great tone and this particular day his tone was piercing. I went up and looked his amp over, but didn't say anything to him during his performance, because he would have become nervous and probably wouldn't have played as well as he usually does. After his show was over, he came by and I told him that he had a new amp and it wasn't up to his usual, that I hadn't said anything to him to interrupt his performance. He was trying out a new amp before he bought it, It had one of the lightweight Neo speakers in it and they are extremely bright. He wanted lighter weight, but wasn't going to sacrifice tone for it. So he made up his mind not to buy the amp. He was happy that I handled it the way I did and That he had found out about the amp before buying it. I was happy that I still had a friend. The next show it won't be a problem.

I'm not running a studio at Saluda, its a live show. I leave it up to the players on the stage to get their own stage balance, I respect their professionalism and ability first. If they need a boost, I give it to them, however this doesn't take care of the player who is too loud. If I can get their attention discreetly I give a hand signal, but I would never walk up to the stage and tweak their amp. Just isn't the polite thing to do in the Southern US. Usually the staff band will give each other cues about volume and they are highly professional musicians who take a lot of pride in their product. If I relieve someone in the staff band I start out low and usually I know if I'm too low and will correct for it on my own, if not then they tell me that I need to be louder. That way we have no hard feelings. My way works for me and no doubt yours probably works for you.

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The Southern Steel Guitar Convention at Saluda, SC Since 1987

For informstion on the Shriners Childrens Hospitals, go to:
http://www.shrinershq.org/hospitals/geninfo.html

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 18 July 2004 at 04:41 AM.]

Jelle Biel · From: the netherlands

When the drummer is a REAL MUSICIAN ? or/and is playing more instruments (or is a singer),,,?,,,,,,,
HE KNOWS ""how and what"" to play!!

GOOD EXAMPLES ? Jim Loesberg !
My first choice is KENNY MALONE (or Lenny de Falk from Amsterdam HA )

Jelle

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

John, in this case it is a band in which I am a full member,
and the recording engineer for all the recording. They know that I only want them to sound as good as they can, and in the style to which they aspire to sound. Which they know I understand.
Even if their electronics albilities are not at the same level.

It isn't like having a all star show with big time soloists with decades of time tuning in their sound. Nor with a sound mixer out front with a great system and $1,000 mics on each guitar.
I wish...

But if you heard that artist during sound check with a "piercing sound"... well if it was me as that aritist, I WOULD want to be told.
Especially if it didn't seem like my normal sound.
I would be MORE unhappy with you for NOT TELLING ME.... before the show.

It is the manner and discretion you use in giving them the feedback which would be key to being a pro helping another pro, vs someone throwing someone off stride.

No you don't do it during the set.
I can't imagine going up and tweaking Herbie Wallce's amp mid set.

But If Herbie was playing with a touring act and I was mixing on a system I had not specified technically,
and I thought I was having a problem making Herbie sound his best with HIS SOUND out front during sound check.

I would think it poor form not to mention I had a problem fitting him in the mix to his best advantage, but that if he added/dipped a triffle at say around 400hz on his stage system, I could make him sound better. over all.

I of course would have heard his stage sound, so would know what he wants to hear.

It is then his call to make the change or not.
But I am at least doing him the courtesy of letting him know the sound system mix is not what HE would want out front. And a suggestion to make it better out front : take it or leave it, but this should help.

If you have great mics and a very well balanced an eq'd pa system for the show, lucky you,
it makes this issue much less, but too much of the time this is not the case.

As far as culture differences, I ain't french, or even european, I just live here.
But I have done 30+ years of mixing in the states, in all kinds of venues, for all kinds of styles.
And yes pre-arranged hand signals are a must.

Back on DRUMMERS.... There are 3 types

Those that want the exact sound of their drums reproduced perfectly...
but of course never can be out there to listen,
so take thier girlfriends word that their sound sucks. It don't sound like Madona's drummer it must be wrong.

And those that want cannon shots from dead heads, and Zilljian K sound from 15 year old cracked Paistes,
and expect the toms to have the sound of $75,000 in studio devices from a $3,000 used hodge-podge system.
Just like their drum idols get on record...

They also listen to the non drummer girl friend,
and if it isn't bouncing off the back walls and wobbling drinks off the bar, imagine that they can't be heard.

Then there is that rare to far in between drummer who sight reads Coltrain on 3 instruments, can actually tune thier drums, maintain the kit BEFORE something breaks, and ask you to do your best with their sound.

The latter is so rare....
That's why I don't play with a drummer right now.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 18 July 2004 at 02:09 PM.]

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 18 July 2004 at 02:11 PM.]

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

I've read some interesting observations from a few of you here but am amazed at how some still seem to have this mentality that the drummer is something less in the band than a musician. What a very old and convaluted thought that goes back to before there were drums at the Opry. I made my living playing the drums before I took up the steel guitar and take exception to that way of thinking. As for Rickys statement about the ear plugs, could it be that the drummer sits right next or in the middle of the amps and a lot of time right in front of them that may cause him to wear the ear plugs? Why in the hell is the drummer made to sit in the back all of time anyway? While the guys standing up have the luxury of moving around the drummer has to take it right in the head everytime the guitar player feeds back. As for more than one mike on the drums, it doesn't sound like you guys have ever been in a studio. The drumset is more than one instrument and requires different types of mikes throughout the drumset, that is if you want to reproduce the sound of the kit the way it's supposed to sound, a concept the pre-drums on the Opry guys wouldn't have a clue of. It is true the drummer can control the dynamic of the band but only if the hardheaded guitar, bass, you fill in the blank guys would take time to listen instead of trying to tell the drummer how to play. I really didn't get much of that unless I was playing with one of the dinosaurs that actually played on stage before someone suggested it would be a good idea to have somebody up there to actually create the rythm for the band but providing the drummer does play with dynamics I always found it amazing how many of the rest of the band never even noticed when I brought the feel of the song to its proper level and they continued to wail away. After playing the steel guitar for over the last twenty years I continue to notice this very thing and with guys that have played in dozens if not hundreds of well known acts everywhere. So should there be a conductor with his baton to keep the non drummers in the band in line or should they actually practice the art of listening?

Believe it or not there is much more to the drummers job than simply keeping a beat or being a live replacement for a metronome. Everyone in the band (including the guitar, bass, etc player) should strive to have balance in the band. This includes dynamics, volume, swells, you name it. I doubt most of the non-drummers out there would recognize a good drummer when they heard one but instead would put him as far back on the bandstand as they could, try to tell him what to play and them place all of the blame on the drummer when the band was overall too loud. A lot of the drummers I see today are studying with a lot better methods then there was available when I started and are better at younger ages than before. I'm hearing a lot more solos coming out the drummers than before too. Why shouldn't the drummer get to play solos? I'm not saying that all drummers have everything going for them (neither do the rest of the band by the way) but just what if the drummer were the only one up front and told the rest of the band how to play and had amps he could turn up or down instead of actually having to control his volume and dynamics with no more than his hands and feet?

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

OK, why are bass players always too loud?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Just for the record... but not ON record, I am a drummer.
Played in reggae, swing, rock, fuson and jazz bands from time to time.

There are a few drummers who are so pleasing to work with you book them if you can...
but you can't because they have too much work.

Basses resonate with the room in odd ways,
and the sound is non directional in it's lower frequencies.
Plus the bass notes at the low end don't develope full power to the ear until they are 8-16 or even 32 feet from the amp.

So it is difficult for the bassist to actually hear the bass at it's true volume in the room from the typical playuing position.

Also the frequency range is to a great extent below typical ear recognition clarity levels, it is more sensed than heard,
so those two elements tend to push the bass higher in the mix.

As to drummers with ear plugs.
The cymbals and drums tend to naturally create sound levels that can cause ear damage. Couple that with being back with all the amps close by it isn't any wonder a few smarter drummers want to save their ears.

I usually tend to have an earplug on the side the drummer is, if I am regularly working with one.
The cymbals can be killer. always ringing in the exact same frequency band, as opposed to guitars which have a much wider band.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 July 2004 at 01:38 AM.]

Bill Ferguson · From: Milton, FL USA

Frank,
You nailed it. I being a steeler and a sound man (and a darn good one I've been told) do mic the complete drum kit. I hate for the drums not to be up to all the "high" powered amps that pickers want to show off.

I have been very fortunate to pick with some GREAT drummers and be able to handle the sound for some great and not so great bands. I usually have a pow-wow with the band during sound check to see what they want to hear in their monitors. Then I run the monitors a little low in volume, so the players have to strain a little to hear them, causing the overall stage level to run lower (most of the time).

There are exceptions to every rule, but I find that most musicians, INCLUDING THE DRUMMER, want the out front sound to be good and will cooperate. I actually think the drummer should be the best musician in the band, then the bass player. For with great rhythm, it makes my steeling easy.

Our drummer gets a couple of solos every night we play. The audience loves it.

So in light of being punished on this forum, let's hear it for the "drummers" in the room.

Bill Ferguson

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Stop worrying about what makes a steel work and concentrate on how YOU make it sound"

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

Amen Bill and Donald,
It's nice to hear that sometimes the drummers are included in the mix as musicians. Playing outside can be hell for a drummer as sound just disapates as soon as you hit anything. Jay Weaver is a very good friend of mine playing with Tanya Tucker and was on Dolly Partons acoustic tour regularly uses ear plugs and got me into carrying them in my seat. You can still hear the band just fine but good ear plugs will filter out the bad highs and even the bad lows that can be damaging to the ears. I recently played at a club where they play those thumping types of tunes (the kind that the cars make your windows rattle when they go by) for the folks that like to dance to that stuff and the volume is just overwelming. I can't get those plugs in my ears fast enough when we take a break. Miking the drum kit can be tough and that's why you see most studios with a house kit already miked. Having a drummer that can play well and can solo can be the highlight of the night for a lot of bands and the people that go to hear them. For the poor guys that only are allowed to "keep the beat" they never get the chance to solo and probably don't even work on it. Lord knows the front man or the guitar player wouldn't want the attention taken away from them. It's hard to top a good drummer when he plays a good solo.

Theresa Galbraith · From: Goodlettsville,Tn. USA

End of story!

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

The designers forgot to put a master volume control in the software.

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

Myron,
Probably so they can hear themselves over the rest of the band!

Gord Cole · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Frank:
Thank You!!!

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

I think if you have a drummer that can keep the rest of the band on time you have a real good musician . There is nothing better than having a drummer and a bass man keeping enerything right in step . That will let any lead instrument play his heart out . Yes there must be a happy medium for ever musician on stage . The volume has always been a problem with a lot of groups and i think it always will be . Lets not beat up the other musicians because we don't seem to like everything that we hear , just maybe they don't like some of the things they hear . Just my 2 cents worth . G.P.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Donny wrote:

quote:
Rock music must be loud for people to like it. Loud is good, louder is better. That's rock. That's their mantra. "Feel the energy"! Rock drummers, almost without exception, think all fast songs have to be very loud, and most all slow songs have to be almost as loud.

Country drummers, on the other hand, are normally quite tasteful and reserved.

My experience is the opposite. I've played with a few "tastful and reserved" country bands, but most of them around here have loud, horrible drummers who insist on pushing the volume to the limit of the guitar player's amp. Sometimes I think that drummers and lead guitarists are in cahoots. Almost every country band I've played with has been asked to turn down after the first song or two. I have no idea why that is.

The rock drummers I've played with, on the other hand, seem more concerned with dynamics than with volume. They know more different rhythms than country drummers, and play more inventive parts. That's one of the reasons that I play more rock than country these days. It's not as loud.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Go figure !!

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

B0b,
Your comments are heard loud and clear here. Country drummers are only thought of as a live metronome, never given a solo and seldom even introduced to the audience. Now let the steel player or the guitar player take a ride and they may be mentioned but the drummer is only there to " keep the rest of the band in line". The rock drummers work at their craft more because they actually get to show it off now and then. I mean what would be the point for the steel player to learn a lick and then never get to use it? It's no different with the drummers out there. I wonder just how come the rest of the band has no sense of timing or are unable to play in tempo only if the drummer holds them there? I've worked with dozens of bass players that play way faster than the tempo of the tune and they say it's so called "on top of the beat". Either you're in beat with the band or not. I don't believe in that sorry phrase to explain their inability to play in time. I've had these guys just whiz right past me and have the nerve to say I was dragging or holding them back. These so called country bass players are notorious for doing it on shuffles. You start out at 85BPM and wind up at 110! That's called rushing not playing on top of the beat. More than half of these so "country" bass players couldn't play funk if their life depended on it and then you get this "I'm a country bass player" crap when you want to play something as primitive as Mustang Sally. I'm truly glad I don't play drums anymore but the memories are still there.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Well, I have something in common with David Donald! I, too, played drums...almost a decade before I touched a guitar or a steel. I know what a good drummer sounds like. But, unlike Bobby, I don't believe I've heard more than one or two rock bands with "tasteful" drummers. (Don Henley, of the Eagles, comes to mind as one of them.)
If a drummer never uses brushes, he is probably not a tasteful drummer.

Somehow, I suspect the "rock music" Bobby is talking about and playing is more along the lines of easy-listening, or soft-rock music. I doubt they do many songs in the style of Aerosmith, Twisted-Sister, Kiss, or Metallica!

(If they do, I'd sure like to hear 'em!)

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Donny I did play other instruments before I played drums.

But as a studio engineer I found myself tuning drums regularly, for less than fully trained drummers, in the studio, all the time for decades.
They would set up, and I say tune up your drums a bit before we do a take,
then cringe during the 1st test recording. Play it back for them...
and more often than not be right into the whole drum kit,
hands on, at the drummers request for about 1/2 an hour. Tell we got the kit under control.
Also I would often be the test drummer when he went into the control room to have a listen.

Eventually with the house kits sitting around, some fine fully trained drummers around as teachers I just ended up playing more and more.
Good excersise and an occasional gig.

If I don't notice the drummer during a gig, but am digging the groove and the accents,
and then he makes music with his solo... and his drums ring true...
well that's my kinda drummer.

My 4 favorites that I have played with are
the late great Alan Dawson, creater of the Berklee percusion department.
His students Bob Guilatti and Alan Goodrich
and Tommy Cambell from John McGlaughlin's and Sonny Rawlin's bands.

These guys were never too loud, unless they wanted to and for good reason.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 24 July 2004 at 02:45 PM.]

Joe Casey · From: Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)

I would think that a bad drummer would play soft and very low so no one can hear him.

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David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Ya think?

Actually I have observed bad drummers play with more stick movement to compensate for a lack of good timing.
If the stick moves a longer distance ( louder), then it is easier to see / feel the timing differences.

The great drummers, play with wrists and even finger movement rather than whole arm and soime wrist.

Chris Brooks said he might haver a drummer for our Cape Cod jam, and I asked if he could play with pencils.
I saw Alan Dawson do a ballad with real #2 pencils, and he sounded awesome.
Somtimes with the slightly rounded writin' end and sometimes with the erasure end.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

quote:
Somehow, I suspect the "rock music" Bobby is talking about and playing is more along the lines of easy-listening, or soft-rock music. I doubt they do many songs in the style of Aerosmith, Twisted-Sister, Kiss, or Metallica!

(If they do, I'd sure like to hear 'em!)

Maybe not quite Metallica, but I wouldn't call it easy-listening or soft-rock either. Here are two songs (mp3 format) that we recorded live last summer:

Just Around The Bend

Today and Tomorrow

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Mark Kuhn · From: Bradenton, Florida, USA

I agree with the drummer / soundman issues. Drummers shouldn't be soundmen. Soundman shouldn't be drummers. One drummer I've worked with is a great friend but YES HE PLAYS WAY TOO LOUD. I've only met one sound man I've liked. He was a guitarist and only used 2 mics for the drums.

How do you tell the drummer is level on stage?............when he drools from both sides of his mouth.

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Mark Kuhn

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