JI vs. ET on Open tuned bottle neck slide

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

I use Bobby Lee's quick and dirty way of tuning a steel with a tuner and it works great. When Bobby and Rick were teaching us what that was all about last year, Bobby stated that he felt that Robert Johnson was using JI to tune and that ET didn't sound any good for bottle neck, which had me wondering pretty hard because ET always worked for me on bottle neck and I play Robert Johnson and Johnny Winter and never had a problem. I know about and can hear a minor blues 3rd ok, it's between a Minor 3rd and a Major 3rd. I have finally resolved this issue with myself because both Robert and Johnny fret their open tuned guitars in addition to sliding. JI doesn't work on the frets of a guitar which is why you can't tune a guitar to JI, since we fret in addition to sliding, I believe our ears make the slight adjustments on the slide part of playing just like on steel when it comes to lining up with the frets. Son house and Sonny Landreth both do alot of freting while playing open tuned slide. Sonny frets notes in addition to playing slide at the same time for his special effects which surely has to be ET? Bobby Lee, oh great guru of steel guitar, what say you? How many of you guy's have checked this out?

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 06 December 2003 at 07:50 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

"How many of you guy's have checked this out?"

Well let's see......

Been thinkin about it since the day I got my first pedal steel guitar close to 50 yrs ago.

Whether it be on slide guitar, or any other instrument, I am convinced ET is right, but man will spend eternity trying to prove it wrong.

carl

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

I believe it was me who implyed Robert Johnson tuned JI ... that's what Legba told me at the crossroads

Just hard for me to think any "pre-tuner" folks would tune an open chord with an ET major third by ear ...

I love the Slack Key guitar ... sounds like they are using JI on a spanish guitar.

How 'bout it you "Slackers" ... how does Ledward, Raymond K., etc tune up ?

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Some of y'all think I'm too analytical ...

Check this out ... Mictrotonal Analysis of Robert Johnson's Drunken Hearted Man

David Doggett · Posted 6 Dec 2003 9:32 am

Woah, Rick. That analysis of Robert Johnson will take quite awhile to digest, but it seems to say Johnson was striving for some kind microtonal thing, not simple JI or ET.

As for tuning slide guitar JI or ET, like tuning anything else it depends on your needs. I personally watched Fred McDowell tune JI by ear, and my impression is that everybody did that for slide up until the cheap hand-held ET tuners became available in recent years. Now slide players have the same dilemma as other steelers. If you play most chords open or with the slide, you'll sound better tuned JI. Even if you fret a lot of notes, if you are using an open chord tuning, it'll probably sound better tuned JI to that chord. The only time I might consider tuning ET would be if I was using slide on a regular tuned guitar and was playing in a lot of different keys.

As I've said before on these ET/JI posts, I discovered that a fixed pitch instrument tuned to a JI scale can only play JI for a few chords (I, IV, V, VImin, IImin?), but can't play II and VI chords JI, even in the key you've tuned JI to. But a bar or slide on an open tuned instrument can play any major chord JI. That seems to be a little appreciated advantage for bar instruments, and is why many of us prefer tuning close to JI on a psg E9. But when you use tunings other than open major chords, such as C6, JI creates problems, and many prefer ET for these more complicated tunings and their more complicated chords. The same is true for slide guitar, if you use something other than a straight major chord tuning.

So the answer to "should I use ET or JI for slide guitar?" is an emphatic yes.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 06 December 2003 at 09:36 AM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

These guys ... Sonic Arts ... are

.

I've read (or tried to anyway) alot of the archieved stuff ... some serious work in acoustic science.

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Rick, how do you find this cool stuff?

Both you and Bob raised the point about JI being used for bottle neck tuning. I have to say, that all my dubious efforts at empirical analysis, still has me coming back to the issue of being able to fret anywhere on the neck of an open tuned guitar and have the fretted notes be in tune with the guitar and with the other ET instruments, the slide can micro adjust it's notes alot easier than the fretted notes can. The Open Tuning books out on slide that I own or have read all show how to tune the guitar using fretted notes to arrive at the desired open tuning? I would think Slack Key would use the same method, because of the frets, but I haven't studied any Slack Key Books or it's recorded music yet? My ukulele book also uses frets to tune itself up? These books come with CD's and sound in tune?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

If I said that, I take it back. Obviously if you're fretting a string that's tuned to a just major third, you will have intonation problems.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Thanks Bob, appreciate it.

David Doggett · Posted 6 Dec 2003 12:39 pm

If you want to be able to fret anywhere, you need ET, for the same reason as a regular guitar. But you will also need to have the nut and bridge really well adjusted for your string guages. This will be difficult if you want high action, which most slide players like. Good luck.

Chuck Fisher · From: Santa Cruz, California, USA * R.I.P.

Somehow I get amused with the image of Robert Johnson saying in an interview, "actually, I favor a microtonal approach to guitar, I have ben playing that way after reading The Lydian-chromatic Concept of Improvisation by George Russel"

How hard you squeeze down, how you tuned in the first place, slight slants, squeeze/tilt to allow open string on one side, etc. are highly personal and subjective.

I use a Tuner and make slight adjustments by ear as I hear things, usually the low strings end up a cent or 2 flat, but all in all. my playing is so inconsistant I'm not sure I always do it the same. And yes different keys vary the end result.

Go to a Cajun cookout and eat crayfish and drink beer then play - you'll understand the intonation much better.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Recluse · From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA

"I am NOT flat. It's obvious that my microtonal, rational relationships are integral to the template!"

Steve Bailey

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

And now, for a stupid comment! Some of the best bottleneck blues I've ever heard, was played slightly out of tune. I'd be listening to something, and I'd suddenly realize that some of it's charm and appeal was the sound of being slightly out! That said, I tune up with my ancient Strobe Tuner, and then make adjustments by ear.
JB

John Kavanagh · From: Kentville, Nova Scotia, Canada * R.I.P.

"make adjustments by ear". That says a lot - chances are you're tweaking the open tuning to make it closer to JI. But the guitar is still fretted in ET.

Probably anyone tuning to a major chord tuning is going to want to tune the open strings to an in-tune chord, as well as their ears will let them. Since the frets are fixed in Equal Temperament, the compromise that lets us play in more than one key, not all the intervals will stay just up the neck. The most bothersome part will be unisons involving the string tuned to the third of the chord, which will be flatter than it would be if tuned ET.

Ears that can tolerate ET (most of us) will probably tolerate most of that variation - it would be very troublesome if you played a lot of extended chords or chromatics, but blues tends to stay oriented to the home key.

Banjo players who tune their open-G chord by ear have a problem with the b on the 4th fret of the g string being sharp to the open string b, and this unison is used in a lot of banjo licks. Earl Scruggs used to have a little piece of fretwire set in just behind the 4th fret on that string but stopped doing it because it really messed things up when he used a capo.

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

I use a Johnson single cone brass Resonator with the body joined at the 14th fret, which stays in tune relative to the frets up to the 6th fret and then will start to go up in pitch the higher you go, but it's nothing I can't live with. The older Nationals with the body joined at the 12th fret I have been told are alittle out on their fret placement and need to be tweeked when tuning for the 3rd and 5th fret to work. The old delta blues guys played cheapo Stellas back in the old days and I'm sure they had there own way of fine tuning like all different brands.

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