BMI Sues Small Pizza Shop for Playing a CD

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Seriously, folks...
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/business/8681729.htm

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Bill Crook · From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance

If I was him, I'd tell BMI to take a flying leap. My outfit was approached by one of these goonies, What we told him cannot be printed here.

They are not interested in the singer,players or even the material. They only want the money. The greedy dipwadds.

I bet,If they could, they would go after the guy playing in his own house. I mean playing any kind of musical insturment. (Hey, listen up BMI ASCAP, I know your stupid enought to try that) Pretty soon, they will try to go after the consumer just for listening to a radio,CD or tape. Now,you know all this stuff is copyrighted,so if you get any kind of enjoyment from the music,you should pay them money for the option to even hum a tune while you work. They can kiss a part of my body that I cain't.

You see what they done to music row and 16th ave. It's a deserted area now.

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Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

As a BMI affiliated songwriter who gets ocassional checks from BMI(small though they may be)for that aspect of my work in this biz,I can't share the utopian fantasy of "everything should be free for everyone" mentality.Music DOES belong to those who wrote it and they should be paid something for it on an ongoing basis as long as the music is in the public arena - whether it be CD sales,radio play,sale of sheet music,juke box play or live performance by a cover band in a bar.One way to compensate songwriters is by a blanket license issued to bars with jukeboxes/live music. Sure the guy bought the CDs,and he owns the CDs but he does NOT own the music. And if he is using the music he does NOT own to increase business in his establishment,what's the difference between paying for that and paying for any other thing he uses to increase his business - like electricity or water. Should they be free too? This is not about mean old record companies - it's about guys like me trying to pay their mortgage. These licenses are cheap,BTW. -MJ-

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

OK, Michael, but I'll bet even you would agree that the suggestion that the shop should be prevented from having even an artist appear live who only plays his own original music because "sooner or later he's gonna play a copyrighted song" is asinine and tantamount to shaking down the shop owner.

After all, if a cop stopped your non-speeding car and gave you a ticket because "sooner or later, if you keep on driving that car, you're gonna speed", we'd NEVER tolerate that! It's this kind of mafioso-shakedown that gives ASCAP/BMI a bad rap when, of course, they do have other legitimate issues, as you point out.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

My band has a blanket rule: we only play original material. We make this very clear with everyone who hires us. We simply do not play other people's songs. Period.

As a band, we don't even know any "cover tunes". The likelihood of us performing a BMI tune is nil.

This BMI rep was flat out wrong.

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Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Every song is an original song written by somebody.And every song is or should be copyrighted and published by somebody. And every song publisher is an affiliate of BMI,ASCAP or SESAC. So what goes around, comes around. BTW,these guys might "lean" on a given bar or establishment but they have no legal recourse to close the place down if they don't buy a license any more than the musician's union can lock you up if you don't join.

William Peters · From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA

Michael,

[quote]Every song is an original song written by somebody.And every song is or should be copyrighted and published by somebody. And every song publisher is an affiliate of BMI,ASCAP or SESAC [/unquote]

Now don't you think that is up to the individual? This is still a somewhat free country. And I don't think that every song publisher has to be an affiliate. If they do, thats just another infringement on everyone's personal liberty. Ever heard of self-publishing?

As far as owning the CDs, but not the music, I think that is quite assinine. The purpose of copyright laws is to protect the copyright owner against someone copying the work without permission. But I disagree that playing the CD amounts to copying it. Where is the copy? All I'm hearing here is greed, greed, greed.

I certainly hope your get your 1.5 cents from the pizza parlor proceeds.

Bill www.wgpeters.com

This message Copyright (c) by William G. Peters Ph.D Unauthorized copying of this messages will result in an unpleasant day.

[This message was edited by William Peters on 17 May 2004 at 03:07 PM.]

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

It's a situational thing, but in many situations it amounts to compounded taxation, IMHO.

The licensing agencies argue that if a business uses music to increase revenue, it should pay royalties.

I've told this story before but it applies here and so bears retelling. My wife's veterinary clinic was visited by ASCAP agents. They said that because the radio is played by the staff behind the counter for their own enjoyment, it makes the lobby of the clinic "more enjoyable" for those clients with their pets waiting to see the doctors. Therefore she should pay royalties. They also said that because someone who calls the clinic and gets put on hold listens to radio over the phone, she should pay royalties.

We'll ignore the fact that the music isn't part of the attraction of the business in the first place, as it would be in a bar. Nor is the music necessarily adding to the ambience of the place to make customers linger and spend more money, like in a restaurant. The customers of the clinic would be there regardless of the ambience because their main intent is to see the doctor.

The fact remains in this situation that royalties have already been paid by the radio station to the licensing agency. So the double taxation exists because people are paying to play the music, and people are being asked to pay for the music by simply listening to it after royalties have already been paid.

What did my wife do? She took the "music on hold" feature off her phone, and she instructed the staff to listen to whatever they wanted on the radio and ASCAP can take whatever action they want.

No response from as yet from ASCAP. It's been about seven years now.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 17 May 2004 at 03:54 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I'm not debating whether songs should or shouldn't be published or administered by BMI,ASCAP or SESAC - They just mostly all are - that's just a general fact.I have my own publishing company as most songwriters do and I'm affiliated with BMI because I don't have time to chase down my 1.5 cents...
I agree with Herb that there's a line to be drawn somewhere in there when the establishment is not one where music will make or break the business like in a veterinary waiting room or you're just playing a radio when the radio station has already paid for a license. But if music plays a part in the ambience of the business - especially a major part as in a night club or restaurant with music and/or dancing and they're playing my music,damn right I want my 1.5 cents. -MJ-

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

And you deserve every penny, Michael!

All I'm sayin' is, if it's ME playin' MY OWN DAMN songs in some Starbucks coffee house, and I ain't affiliated with BMI, NO WAY should BMI get a penny from anybody. And for BMI to threaten shutting down a shop because "sooner or later" I'm gonna play one of their songs is immoral (Convicted and fined before doing the crime!) Will ya at least grant me that point, Michael?

They ought to go back to shaking down Boy Scouts for singing "America the Beautiful" around the campfire. That's so much more respectable, doncha think?

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 17 May 2004 at 04:53 PM.]

William Peters · From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA

Michael.\,

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I think it's a disgrace that the musician with all self-published original material will loose a gig because someone who has no claim to their music wants their cent and a half.

If that's not a shake-down I don't know what is.

Enjoy you checks now, because you are forcing the music of the future to be all Non-Royality Canned Musak Loops.

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

heck if someone played my songs id be happy lol nsai listens but boy they sure run em down

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

Like MJ, I've been with BMI for years. As a publisher or song writer it is necessary to be affiliated with one of the orginazations in order to function in the real world.

As a picker it really honks me off that some Ahole will go for intimadating the mom and pop store. The times I've seen it, it's usually a newbie BMI guy trying to make a name for himself and pissing off everyone involved including BMI members.

Bill Carpenter · From: Liberty Hill, Texas, USA

I bought the CD. you made the 1 and 1/2 cents. I own the CD. I will play it in my living room, and in my car, I will play at the office and in my back yard. I will take it to a friends house and play it there as well, Perhaps my friend will like it, and one more CD will sell. You make another 1 and 1/2 cents. While walking down any street I hear a boom box blasting a beat. I stop and listen and decide that I like this beat, and once again you sell another CD. You made another 1 and 1/2 cents. Now if every one listed above had to pay the gestopo police, oh excuse me I mean't BMI an outrageous yearly fee then your music would not have been shared and you made zip because BMI ain't gonna share theirs with you because they have to pay all of those storm troopers/agents with the money they extorted from those who tried to help you sell more CD's by allowing others to hear it who may not have ever heard your music otherwise. To bad you loose, but hey you got your 1 and 1/2 cents for the one and only CD sold because no one ever got the chance to hear it, and sent some gestopo storm trooper got to go on a 2 week cruise.

Buy my CD and play it for the entire world. Who knows, there might be 4 or 5 folks out there that like it enough to buy their own copy and I might actually make a little cash without any help from the gestopo police aka BMI and their extortion tactics.

Personally I have not purchased a new Garth Brooks CD in years because he got so greedy that he said that any retail outlet that sold used CD's could not sell his new CD's because he was not making anything on the sales from the used CD's with his mucic on them. I only buy the used ones so he can't make his 1 and 1/2 cents off of me

Just the Opinion of a musician who believes that the music is meant to be heard by everyone. BTW "MUSICIANS" are a vanishing breed, Now there are "PERFORMERS" who are in it for the paycheck and the music is just secondary.

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Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Yeah Jim I'll grant you that if it's you playing your own unpublished songs in Starbucks,you don't owe me 1.5 cents.

In the real world however,if a joint is having live music over a period of time,it is highly likely that way more acts than not will be doing published material(their own or more probably someone else's)and since BMI is the largest of the three main royalty collection agencies,there certainly will be BMI involvement - not to mention ASCAP - and rightly so. But like I said,BMI can't close a place down - just like a labor union,they can only apply persuasion and hope to get compliance.
But seriously,I would suggest that anyone who writes their own material would learn before too long the importance of copyrighting their work,starting a publishing company and getting affiliated.I only learned that lesson after I got beat for the royalties on a tune I co-wrote that should have earned me serious bucks and had no one w/any clout(like BMI)to turn to.After many irate phone calls from me,Polygram Records finally saw fit to break me off a check for $1.09 and a few months later,another one for $0.18 so there ya go.....My perspective on royalties and such comes from personal experience so I guess I tend to come down on the side of the songwriter and BMI is basically an agent for songwriters.
When it comes to live music/DJ/jukebox licensing,since unlike radio,it would take an army of loggers and accountants to keep track of every CD played or every song played by every band in every BMI licensed joint every night,the theory is that the blanket fees collected from these kinds of establishments are distributed to all published BMI affiliated songwriters in the form of quarterly checks in the hope it will average out in some small way.(small is the operative word here)
But I don't see it as any more of a shakedown than when the beady-eyed out-of-work trombone player with a briefcase fronting for local 47 comes into Shakeys wanting to card the non-union hack piano player and threatens to close the joint down if the piano player doesn't cough up a years dues on the spot. And like these other music biz institutions,unions are intrinsically neither good nor evil - they're just THERE. Like BMI,your checks come to you through them and one must deal with them sooner or later if one spends his/her life trying to make a living in the music biz.
-MJ-

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Ah yes, the music business. Where each day is better than the next...

rpetersen · From: Iowa

Let's just say for instance, I go on a gig and play someones song and someone comes up and asks about it and then goes and buys the CD - believe me, this has happened!!!!!!!!!!! - There are a hell of a lot of more people buying CD's then there are mucicians helping promote the songwriters product!!!! When will we get paid for helping the songwriters??????

William Peters · From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA

Michael,

Bill Crook · From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance

Michael...............

I think you would be much better off in all respects just sell your product yourself (like most of the players,singers and writers are doing now) instead of giveing most of your money to the greedy BMI but*****. I'm sure your income from your music would increase far more than the 18cents BMI paid you,while they ride around in their Caddy's and Town cars,which was paid for by money you should have received.

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Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

Radio stations around here play spots that encourage listeners to tune them in at work. I'd assume that is common nationwide. Unless every listener uses earbuds, the music will waft around to others nearby. In warehouse, front office, and service counter areas, that guarantees the business clients will hear the music. Should the business be charged for that? Consider a person who drives up to a store listening to KXYZ on their radio (for free) and walks inside only to hear KXYZ playing behind the counter. What has changed? Should fees be paid depending on whose radio is the source of KXYZ for this person's ears at any particular moment? It's all very complicated.

Now consider another angle. A-Z Fishing Tackle store has a radio on behind the counter. Joe Fisherman comes in to buy bait. He hears a song on the radio, and then an ad plays for burgers at Frank Furter's down the street. Joe responds to the ad and goes and gets a burger at Frank's. Should A-Z Fishing Tackle pay ASCAP for the radio music and also get a fee from Frank's for providing a conduit for advertising? The radio station already pays music fees and receives advertising fees based on a presumed listening audience. If A-Z Fishing Tackle should pay music fees (on top of what the radio station pays), why shouldn't they receive an advertising stipend?

There's also the assumption that music played on a radio in a business environment will enhance business. I know there's no accounting for taste, but I don't necessarily like what I hear on the radio in these places, so the "enhancement" factor is debatable. In the gym I belong to, I don't like their selection of radio station. I go there anyway for the sake of my health, but I'd be a happier camper if I could change the station (I tried once, it got changed back later on).

ASCAP/BMI/SESAC provide a valuable service to help make sure music artists are fairly paid. I just think that music enters a complex web once it is released into the world, and in the arena of its use as an almost whimsical element in some store's ambience, some reasonable latitude should be allowed.

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Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?

[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 18 May 2004 at 09:44 AM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I'm with the "NON-BMI" folks here..I have a few self written tunes, the list is growing, they are copyrighted..I own them..I am self published..

If some whacked out dude approached me as mentioned above concerning me playing my own copyrighted songs in public at the local Pizza joint....the first thing I would make certain is that he represented BMI and spoke for them. The second thing I would do is file a huge CIVIL action suit against BMI.

Lets see what happens..

Right after winning the suit, I would write a book, go on Oprah, buy a new Vette', retire, and just hang out all day and do nothin'...

I thought this stuff still only happens in the movies..

Michael..it's good that you are being paid for your tunes..but thats not the issue here..telling someone to cease playing live music even though it is owned by the performer is like being in the Godfather movie..my thought is that this guy ( Self proclaimed BMI guy) was a local nobody with a desire to be a somebody..but without any chance of being a somebody with that total lack of common sense.

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 18 May 2004 at 08:02 AM.]

Chippy Wood · From: Elgin, Scotland

I don't profess to know anything about the music business and therefore can't rightly comment on it, but several things spring to mind on reading the various posts.
1. The music belongs to the person who wrote it (unless he /she sells the copyright to a major company ) therefore any dues or a larger proportion should go to that person.
2. All the 'minnows' should get together and form an association to publish, print, record etc and get rid of the big 'fish'and therefore get a better deal out of it.
3. Can any writer honestly say they have never ,hummed, whistled, listened to any tune or gained inspiration for song writing and then declined to publish it because they felt they should have paid the original writer for the pleasure, perhaps ideas that they may have obtained from it, every musician had to start by listening to some one elses music at some stage.

[This message was edited by Chippy Wood on 18 May 2004 at 09:03 AM.]

Nate LaPointe · From: Los Angeles, California, USA

Like MJ said, we all draw from our own personal experiences. About 3 years ago, I wrote a tune with a friend, we recorded it on an album with an independent record label, then the tune got picked up for a spot in a cable tv show. Nearly 2 years after I wrote the song, I got a check for $250 because the show went to DVD. I am grateful for the work ASCAP has done for me. Wouldn't you be willing to stand behind the licesning fees if they paid you? When someone uses my intellectual property, I want paid for it!

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