Correct Terminology

Carter York · From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

Hey y'all,

Can someone explain, or point me to a thread or website, when a Bb is an A# and vice-versa. I have always looked at everything a half-step 'higher' as a sharp, being a self taught Spanish guitarist first. I find that is still something a "jazz school" friend of mine corrects me on........and I don't like that.

Thanks,
CY

Cal Sharp · From: the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN

Enharmonic - a note that can have two different names. From what I remember from music theory, it depends on what key you're in. In the key of F, for instance, a Bb note would certainly _not_ be called A#. And aside from music theory, I've never heard any experienced musician on the bandstand say A# when referring to the 4 chord in the key of F. But then, I haven't worked with many horn players; they might have a different slant on it.

C# - or am I Db?

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

It's simple, there are no sharps in keys with flats and no flats in keys with sharps.

One of my pet peeves is calling the second string on the E9 tuning Eb, it's D#!

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

Most writers and arrangers will use #s (sharps) more so than bs (flats) because everything goes fine until you hit the B to C and the E to F. There is a natural half step between these notes. So an Fb is an E and a Cb is a B. However, on the contrary it works the other way too. B# is C and E# is F.
So it comes down to the key the song is in. If the notes of chords in the key you're in need to be altered to achieve a Major or minor chord, then a sharp will probably be used more often. For example: In the Key of D Major, your 1, 4, 5 chords are:
D F# A, G B D, A C# E
In the key of E major it goes:
E G# B, A C# E, B D# F#

If you were to use flats in the last example you would be calling your chord intervals
E Ab B, A Db E, B Eb F# You can see how confusing this can get to read. Musicians are taught to read chords and triads based on the principle of intervals 1-3-5 (E=1, G#=3, B=5)
In order to stay consistant in building triads (using 1,3,5, note intervals) it's important to keep from calling something a sharp in one passage and then a flat in another, or simply using sharps and flats in the same arrangement. It's been along time since music theory for me, but that's my best recollection of the logic.

[This message was edited by Fred Glave on 27 January 2004 at 08:11 AM.]

[This message was edited by Fred Glave on 27 January 2004 at 08:13 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 27 Jan 2004 8:12 am

Technically, it depends on the key signature. For example, tradition has it that the key of F has one flat, Bb, not one sharp, A#. Likewise, the key of G has one sharp, F#, not one flat, Gb. I think possibly the tradition arises from deriving the keys from the cycle of fifths. For whatever reason, if the key signature is stated in sharps, then any accidentals will also be referred to as the sharp, rather than the corresponding flat.

That being said, casual conversational usage does not stick literally to the above formal convention. Certain of the sharps and flats that appear in common keys just have a common name that gets used regardless of the key signature. Bb, F#, and C# come to mind. Since the key of E is a sharp key signature, the E9 copedent should technically be written out with only sharps. But because of the above informal usage, people just understand it and relate to it easier if you say Bb instead of A#. Therefore, you will typically see pedal steel copedents written with a mixture of sharps and flats - technically incorrect, but practically more user friendly.

Interestingly, I have no idea what the technically correct convention is for the key of C, which has no sharps or flats in the key signature.

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

One reason for the E# in Rainer's example is that major scale tones must be different letters.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

It would be very clear when viewed on standard notation. E.g., in C#, the 3rd tone of the scale would be found on the first line of the staff (the "E" line) rather than the first space of the staff (the "F" space).

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

If the note (A#/Bb) is part of a scale, its name has to be consistent with the key signature:
Bb in F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb major scale and their relative minor scales;
A# in F# and C# major and their relative minor scales.

If the note is not part of a scale, but arbitrarily altered, its name depends on whether the original note is raised or lowered.
In the key of C major, going from the tonic chord to the subdominant chord: C - C7 - F
The minor 7th on the C chord has to be called Bb.
Going from tonic to subdominant to dominant with a chromatic passing chord:
C - F - F# - G. The 3rd of F# has to be called A#.

Consider the first interval of the song "Maria" by Leonard Bernstein: c - f# - g. The fourth step of the scale is raised a half tone (f to f#), creating tension and resolving to g. This note cannot be called g-flat.

I hope that makes sense to you.

Rainer

[This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 27 January 2004 at 08:44 AM.]

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I don't care what anyone says!!! My second string will always be an Eb and my verticle knee lever lowers my B strings to Bb and my RKR lowers my E's to Eb.... I have relenented a while back and call my 3rd and 6th strings G# but that's as far as I'm going. I worked some shows with a well known great old performer a few years back and while tuning up we'd say to him, "That's sharp or that's flat" to which he replied "Don't say sharp or flat dammit, say up or down"... Have a great day...JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 27 January 2004 at 09:19 AM.]

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Interesting comments.

Horn players that I have worked with have traditionally held up fingers to communicate the key of a song.....for example: a finger indicates a "flat", and the number of fingers held up indicates a corresponding number of flats which indicates the key that the song will be played in.

...no middle finger comments please. That has the same meaning anywhere!

www.genejones.com

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 27 January 2004 at 09:26 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Many years ago Shot Jackson was asked,

"Why do you call the 3rd string Ab instead of G#?

He replied,"

"Cuz that's what it is!!!!"

carl

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Carter,

All very good responses above, however, here is the simple answer:

Ya gotta use ONE and ONLY ONE of each letter A B C D E F G to describe the scale of a key you're in, and you use sharps or flats to accomplish that.

The key of F major is a good example:
Does it use an A# or a Bb? Same note, right? Right, but just try writing out the scale using an A#:

F G A A# C D E F

Notice you have two kinds of A notes and skip over the letter B entirely. That doesn't make much sense and screws up music written on the staff since there's only one line or space per octave for each letter note. The second space from the bottom on the treble clef represents A. In keys where you need it to be A# you stick a sharp symbol in that space on the left margin, so now it's always A#. If you need that space to represent BOTH A and A# you have a real mess.

To get around this mess you can just write out the key of F using a Bb:

F G A Bb C D E F

Way better, right? ONE of EACH letter is represented in the scale. Now you just stick a flat symbol over on the line for B on the treble clef and you're set to go.

This is why your jazz friends will call F a "flat key" --cuz you use a flat note in the scale.

And this is also why they will cringe when you refer for an A# when you are playing in the key of F.

-GV

[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 27 January 2004 at 09:56 AM.]

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

I agree with the above. Here's a slightly different question: what's the proper terminology for, say, an augmented pitch? Let's say you're playing an "F Augmented" chord. The natural 5th in F is a C, so would we call the augmented 5th a C# or stick to flats (Db)? I think we'd mix it up and call it a C#. Yes/no?

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 27 January 2004 at 09:56 AM.]

Carter York · From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone, I appreciate them....and, I believe I have a much greater understanding now.

Play everything in C.

CY

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Key signatures are connected to written music. The idea is that each note of the scale will get its own line or space on the staff.

This is why the key of G has an F# instead of a Gb. The G line on the staff is already in use by the G natural. Likewise, the key of F has a Bb instead of an A# because there's already an A in the key of F.

Steel players are simply wrong when they say the have an Eb in their E9th tuning. There is no Eb note in the key of E. If there were, sheet music would be very hard to read. Every E would have to be annotated with a flat or a natural.

It's hard to convince people that the F lever should be call E#, though. In actual usage it is part of the C# scale: C# D# E# F# G# A# B#. Each note gets its own line on the staff.

However... if we rename our C# to Db, we can spell the same scale with an F: Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db. Each note still has its own a line on the staff. Notice that instead of 7 sharps, we now have 5 flats. It's easier.

So, I think it really depends on the point of reference. If we think of the F lever creating a VI chord in the key of E, the note is properly called E#. But if we think of it as a full key signature position that stands on its own, it's perfectly proper to call it an F.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Cal Sharp · From: the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN

Quote:
Horn players that I have worked with have traditionally held up fingers to communicate the key of a song....
___________________
To further elucidate, two fingers pointing up indicates two sharps (Key of D) and one finger pointing down indicates one flat (Key of F). Slightly more sophisticated than hollering "D dog!" across a noisy bandstand.

7 up

David Doggett · Posted 27 Jan 2004 10:35 am

Now maybe someone could explain why double sharps and double flats exist in written music. Why not just write the actual note a whole step up or down? I'm sure this has some sensible theoretical basis, but I've never been able to discern it.

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

David,
double sharps/double flats follow the same logic as their simple cousins.

If a note already has a flat and is then diminished, it becomes a double flat.
Example: If you build a full 4-note diminished chord, the steps are: root-minor third-diminished fifth-diminished seventh; in C: C-Eb-Gb-Bbb. Every interval is a minor third. Written in musical staff notation, they all have their own line. For simplicity, many musicians would call those notes C-Eb-F#-A, however. But now, the minor third intervals are not as evident as before.

The same is true for double sharps: if a note already has a #, and is then raised a half step, it receives an x, which means ##.

C# major has C#-E#-G#. C#aug (augmented/raised fifth) has C#-E#-Gx

Rainer

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

I believe again it has to do with the key signiture. For example in the key of
D# (Sharpe) Major, in order to keep from having both sharpes and flats in the same piece, and also to have one note assigned to each line on the staff, the D# Major scale would be written as follows;
D#, E#, F##, G#, A#, B#, C##,

But as it was stated in an earlier reply, to preserve the sanity of the reader and writer, simply change this to the key of Eb(flat).
Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D.
Looks a lot better eh?

I think where it gets more complex is in some keys, diminished and augmented chords need to be easily identified, and that may involve the use of double sharpes or flats.

Ron Sodos · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

The only ones in this thread that are correct are the ones that say it depends on the key signature. If you are familiar with your circle of 5ths going up 5 from C thus
C -> G 1#
G -> D 2#s
D -> A 3#s
A -> E 4#s
E -> B 5#s
B -> F# 6#s
F# -> C#

and going down 5 from C or up 4
C -> F 1flat
F -> Bflat 2flats
Bflat -> Eflat 3flats
Eflat -> Aflat 4flats
Aflat -> Dflat 5flats
Gflat -> Cflat 6flats

Thats it guys there are no sharps is flat keys and there are no flats in sharp keys.

If you are in an altered key and you sharp an F# it is called F##. Take it from someone who could read music before he could read English...........

[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 06 February 2004 at 03:11 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

You can call any thing, anything you want to. And you can say it as often as you wish. The facts remain the same.

A few examples:

It is not Hal Ruggs

It is not Ernest Tubbs

It is not Grand Old Opra

It is not irregardless (no such word)

It is not Chicargo

It is not nu que ler (Ala GWB)

It is not pacific for specific

It is not satistics for statistics

It is not Kmark

It is not Miamah

It is not maysh the pedals, it is mash, press or engage them

It is not Worshington D. C.

It is not "bring this to him".

It is not Cuber or Tamper or Indianner

It is not Eb on the 2nd string

It is not E's to Eb on LKR

It is not Ab (speaking of string 3 and/or string 6)

It is not B's to Bb

It is not "I could care less"

Guys are not female

It is not "I have did that"

So how come these things are said all the time all over"? Because, if party A speaks and party B undertsands, WHO cares how they speak?

Well frankly I do. But then who am I?

Whatevah flotes yer bote

carl

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

(It is not pacific for specific)

Now You're probably gonna tell us the Sahara desert doesn't have sand dumes.

I knew a fellow once who used those terms. In fact I heard an interview on Public radio this week where a fellow said pacific instead of specific. Thanks for the note.

The Indian was very specific when he saw the Pacific ocean for the first time and said, "Whoope"?

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