Why Would A Song In "C" Have "F" & "

Tom Callahan · From: Dunlap, Tennessee, USA

Gentlemen:
I have never in my wildest dreams ever claimed to be an expert or even half way knowledgeable about music composition so I will defer to the forum to help me out.
My darling wife (a piano player) has a question. Here she is;;;;;

Please expain why a song changes to different cords. Is there an logical or mathamatical progression? A rule? I have read several books on music and still have not found in writing the answer I seek.
Thank you for any help you might be able to supply.

Me again, thanking each and every one for any help to resolve this question.

tom

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

One simple reason involves a relatively advanced term called tetra chords. Basically, the first four notes of a C scale are the last four notes of an F scale, and the last four notes of a C scale are the first four notes of a G scale.

This subtle bit of knowledge hit me like a ton of bricks several years ago, and greatly expanded my improvisations.

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

If you look at C on the "Circle of 5ths" you'll see G is only one degree away on the Sharp(#)side & F is one away on the Flat(b)
side. Picture C at 12 o'clock, G at 1 o'clock, & F at 11. Both keys have a stronger gravitational pull towards the C than other notes that are farther away on the Circle. Alot of common song progressions tend to be made of chords that have a natural "pull" due to a closer proximity to the Key. On the circle of 5ths that is...

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

A song changes to different chords to enable the melody, or a singer, to make the song more interesting. In addition, you can vary the places where you change the chords so songs will sound different.

There are general rules about what chords you can use in what key so the song will flow smoothly. There are lots of chords that can be used in any given key, but there are also lots that can't. That's so people won't walk out on the gig cause their ears hurt.

Most of all the chord rules were figured out by a bunch of dead guys a few hundred years ago so we don't have to go thru it again.

'Course they weren't able to figure out our kind of country music, but it worked out pretty good using their rules.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

...mostly cuz it sounds better that way...

Terry Farmer · From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

Mr. and Mrs. Callahan.
A song changes chords to create tension and release. Another way to look at it would be this. If you got in the car and drove in a big circle at the same speed with no scenery and arrived back home, it wouldn't be a very interesting trip, would it? Look at that like staying on the C chord for the whole song. Now, get in the car at home (C chord} and drive through the mountains to Aunt Martha's house (F chord). Kind of pleasant to visit somewhere else, huh? It's not home, but it's still kind of peaceful and not to dissonant. Don't stay too long at Aunt Marthas though and wear out your welcome. Now get back into the car and go somewhere kind of nervous and unfamiliar (G chord). Exciting, but you don't want to stay there very long. Bet you would like to get back to good old peaceful, familiar home wouldn't you? Well, get on back.(Back to C) Now, that was a lot more exciting than the the first trip, or just staying at home, wasn't it? That's why songs change chords. If you want to know why they go to specific changes (I,IV,V) or any other sequence of changes, there are reasons, but really it's all just a matter of tension and release.

Terry Farmer · From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

After reading your post again, I fear I may have missed the point of your question. If you are asking why (in the key of C) a song would progress in particular to F and G, in my opinion it's just a matter of what we've been trained to expect for hundreds of years. We've been trained that F wants to return to C and that G REALLY wants to return to C. Again, it is just tension and release. All of the chords in a particular key have their own "color" or "mood", but the I, IV, and V, (C,F,& G) have a special tension and release relationship that we have been conditioned to accept. Case in point: AHHHHHHHHH(IV or F in this case)MENNN(I or C) How many times have you heard this chord progression at the end of a hymn? I hope this helps or at least sparks some discussion from some folks that knows a lot more about this than myself. Peace.

Tom Callahan · From: Dunlap, Tennessee, USA

Gentlemen, my answer to my wife was that it changed chords becuse that was the way it was written. I thought it was a brilliant answer. Somewhere I have a print out of the circle. Maybe it is in Winnies book.
Thank you all for your help. I guess this one can be closed.

[This message was edited by Tom Callahan on 08 November 2003 at 02:52 AM.]

[This message was edited by Tom Callahan on 08 November 2003 at 02:53 AM.]

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Not all music uses I- IV - V.

There are plenty of alternatives.

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

Not all music uses a 12-note scale either. This can all get pretty complicated.

I've long been fascinated by the fact that the human ear (brain, really) of any person, anywhere, no matter their musical training or lack of it, can tell that a major chord sounds upbeat, a minor chord sounds sad, a seventh chord sounds curtly, an augmented sounds mysterious, a diminished sounds tense, a second sounds friendly, and so on. That unniversal ability to decipher music constantly amazes me.

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Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Here's another way to look at it- a single pitch or melody note can be viewed as a rate of vibration- (stringed instruments, horns, voice etc. actually make notes as a combination of vibrations or partials, but that's another thread!) and a chord can be viewed as a stack of separate vibrations that are either consonant and pleasant against the single pitch, or dissonant and tense, (all according to the listener's musical background, culture, and personal tastes). The ratios of these chords and pitches have a definitely mathematical relationship, Aristotle and DaVinci being two of many who have spent lots of time working out the musical math. Even though there are definite cultural biases about what sounds "right" there do seem to be truly cosmic laws governing these relationships, as physics finds everything from DNA sequences to the birth of stars containing and creating musical patterns and sequences. As far as application to "Why C, F and G in the key of C?"- imagine the old Three Stooges routine where they would sing "Hello-Hello-Hello" in increasingly higher pitches- what they were doing was stacking harmony on top of the first "Hello". The particular harmony being a third interval, or two pitches in the major scale above the original pitch, then repeated again two scale tones above. This stack of thirds interval is the "sound" of a major chord. As the original melody note is changed, within the same scale, the "stack of thirds" above or below the note changes as well. Because of the nature of scale construction, some of the harmony stacks become major, minor, dimished, etc. And most single melody pitches can be harmonized with a variety of chord stacks and still be musically or aesthetically correct. So that's why chords can and do change, as the melody notes change. There are various types of harmony based on scales or modes other than Major, and on melody notes that temporarily go outside of the "key" scale, as well as tunes based on melodies played against a single chord. It always fascinates me to think the simplest songs are connected vibrationally to the fabric of the universe. In ancient times chords and melodies were used as healing modalities, and it appears that these useages are being slowly rediscovered and explored. I suppose that's why Alison Kraus makes me feel so good...

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Our good pal Jim Cohen stated above.."Cause it's sounds better that way"..

In my view, that is the primary fundemental reason.

Just keep in mind that the reason we like music is because it is pleasant to our ears..or it is supposed to be.

Musical scales are comprised of a family of notes..many of which although are musically correct , they don't sound pleasing to us. Songs that "WORK" or rather the reason they sound good to us is because the writer was aware or had the presence of what combination of related notes in the family work in relationship to each other for a pleasing sound. The old standby I,IV,V equation is one that is pleasing and has worked well across many musical styles for years and years.It's success is directly related to it's accepted format..that being , we approve of it. Almost anyone can sing along. If you think of it this way..not many minor key songs really make big hits on the charts, not to say that some don't, but they for the most part can be depressing ! And we don't turn on the radio to get depressed..other than to listen to the news I suppose.Does this make other chord formats wrong ? ..no..just not popular and not accepted by the minions as being pleasant. The Chord voicings of I,VI,II,V is also another which is very well accepted and used across many styles of music..again..because it sounds nice.Another success formula.

If you sing a song in G. and stay monotone in G for the full 3 minutes and the Guitar and the Keyboard are in G for the full 3 minutes, you have a song which is musically correct..but boring as all get go..hence ..not pleasing to the ear. Add a few relataive changes which create a pleasing sound..now you're on to something.

The Guitar is basically tuned in 4ths ( with the mistake of the 2nd string) so those that are familiar with the standard 6 string guitar tuning have been listening unconciously to the I/IV tonality from our earlist days.

The C, F and G as mentioned is a formula of success, , and probably will be for many more years or decades to follow..
Why ? Because it sounds good. For music ,thats the entire ticket.

To state "Thats the way it was written" is only partially correct.It was written by someone who understands "Pleasing "tonality.

The writer didn't guess..I contend he or she knew exactly what they were doing.
T

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 08 November 2003 at 02:49 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I would suggest that if,

Do Re Me Fa Sol La Ti Do, had never been; and if our 12 note semitone system was not invented yet, and suddenly any one of us was to have invented it; and then given it to any group of ppl on this earth; over 99% of them would very soon invent Do RE........Do!

It simply fits harmonically and in every other way that I can think; of in most cases.

As such all the notes of a I chord, and a IV chord and a V chord is in that "diddle". Thus the reason there is an F chord AND a G chord as well as a C chord in the Key of C.

carl

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Blame it all on the 12th root of 2...

Regards Y'all....

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Course, John Lee Hooker did ok with one chord(HOW-HOW-HOW-HOW)

David Doggett · Posted 8 Nov 2003 8:05 pm

It may help if I elaborate a little on what Carl said, because I think this gets to the core of your original question. Sit at the piano and play a C chord. Now still holding that play an F chord. Still holding both of those play a G chord. You will notice that every note of the C scale is now being held down. Therefore, any note of a melody using the C scale will be a part of one or more of those three chords. So if you want to add harmony to the melody, you can do so by using one of those chords with each note of the melody.

There are also some other commonly used chords that use these same scale notes. Mainly, the A minor chord (the relative minor) and the D minor chord (the IIm). Since a given note of the C scale can be in more than one of the above chords, there is room for the composer to choose the harmony or color he wants in different parts of the melody, for example whether a major or minor chord is played with the melody. This also allows the harmony to shift while the melody holds a note. For example, if you sing the Amen on a C, the chord can shift from F to C. This provides the tension and resolution mentioned in several posts above.

The bottom line is that you need the F and G chords to provide the notes of the C scale that are not found in the C chord alone.

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Okay, let me try.

Here are the notes of the C scale:

C D E F G A B

We like to hear major chords. There are exactly 3 major chords that can be made from notes in the scale:

C E G - the 'C' chord
F A C - the 'F' chord
G B D - the 'G' chord

So, if you want to write a song that stays in the C scale and uses major chords, those are your choices.

As for why the chords change when they change, a lot of it is just what we're used to hearing to follow the melody. Bars of the melody tend to start and end on notes that are in the chord. It sounds odd to hold an F note over a C chord, for example, so if the melody has a long F note, the accompaniment will probably change to an F chord.

There are lots of exceptions, of course, but the concept of 3 major chords per key is part of the foundation of music theory.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
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[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 09 November 2003 at 08:32 AM.]

John Floyd · From: R.I.P.

To Distinguish it From Rap.

David Cobb · From: Chanute, Kansas, USA

Dagnabbit John, I was gonna say that!

Gordon Borland · From: San Antonio, Texas, USA

Chords are the rails. Melody is the train.

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Gordon Borland
MSA D10,NASHVILLE 400,PAVEY ADDVERB,SOME WIRES AND A BATTERY.

Tom Callahan · From: Dunlap, Tennessee, USA

Miss Janice;
Please close this out

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T.C.
Emmons S-10
Zumsteel S-10

DroopyPawn · From: Fox, OK, USA

It might help to see how you make a chord.

But it's more than that too. There's resolution tendency, accidental notes (notes that are not normally in a scale), and many other factors.

To make a chord, you pick a note in the scale and then the 3rd and 5th notes above the selected one. In the key of C for example....

Major Chords whole step - half step

C Chord (the red notes)
C D E F G A B C

F Chord
C D E F G A B C

G Chord
C D E F G A B C D

Minor Cords half step - whole step

D Minor Chord
C D E F G A B C

E Minor Chord
C D E F G A B C

And you could make an A Minor chord the same way by starting on the A note.

If you started on the B noted, you'd get a diminished chord - if you followed the pattern above.

So the chords that start on the 1st, 4th and 5th notes - C, F, and G - are the major chords in this (or any other) key.

And the chords that start on the 2nd, 3rd and 6th notes, D, E and A - are minor chords (in any major scale).

Knowing all this makes it much easier to pick out a chord when you hear it in a song. In the key of C for example, if you hear a slightly differenty sounding chord, you might want to see if it's D minor, E minor, or A minor before checking for a Gb diminished because there's no Gb in the key of C. That's not to say that you would never hear a Gb diminished in a Key-Of-C song, but it would be rare compared to the chords listed above.

Now why the chords change......
Usually, the melody will have lots of notes that are part of one of the chords above. For example, if the melody had a lot of G, B and D notes, you might expect it to sound well against a G chord. Likewise a melody with a large population of A, C, and E notes, might be backed with an A Minor chord.

So to simplify things, the reason the chord changes is so that it fits the notes in the melody.

If you want music theory lesson #2, just give me a holler.

Hope this helped someone.

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Gary Shepherd
Sierra Session 12
www.16tracks.com

[This message was edited by DroopyPawn on 18 November 2003 at 08:55 PM.]