Interesting editorial on the merits of LPs & 45s

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

...with bonus commentary on the state of the recording industry. From the mind of picker extraordinaire Danny Barnes:
http://www.dannybarnes.com/vinyl.html

ajm · From: Los Angeles

I can go down to the local computer super-store and buy a stack of 100 blank CDs. The cost is usually something like $15, with a $15 rebate.

I'm having a hard time figuring out why it costs $20 for a pre-recorded CD. And then, you're lucky if you like half of it.

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Artie McEwan

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

I think I read somewhere that the human body actually contains only about $0.03 worth of ingredients, most of which you can buy off-the-shelf. I don't see why some folks make such a big deal about people...

Don Walters · From: Saskatchewan Canada

I wouldn't object to $20 or even $30 if I knew at least 50% of it went to Earnest or Jim or ...

mind you, that's $20 or $30 Cdn

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Don't let anybody kid 'ya. The "mega-zillion" companies are still getting scandalously rich. I don't feel sorry for them, and never will. Even if every major label in the world would fold, I'd still be able to buy what I like! I've already bought over half the CD's for sale on the Forum, and don't mind the $10-$20 cost...after all, it's a small-run product. But it really frosts my ass to have to pay $20 for a CD that's been produced in million-plus quantities. That's absurd, it's like paying $20 for a newspaper! With any other commodity, when the volume goes up...the price goes down. But CD's? No way, baby! They'll turn out 20 million, and then then expect...no...DEMAND you pay the $20 price?!?!

Who gets all the money? Well, like most businesses nowadays, the C.E.O. of the company gets most of it. For his little "labors", he's well paid, pulling down a 7 or 8 digit salary, doling out 6 and 7 digit salaries to a few dozen "friends" who help manipulate the business, and all the while moaning "My company's not making any money! It must be those pesky kids 'ripping' CD's! We need new laws, new protections!"

Yeah, yeah. Tell that stupid crap to some fool who will believe you. I don't.

Leslie Ehrlich · From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

I read the article, and I prefer digital audio over anything else I've ever heard. The only format worse than vinyl would be eight track tapes. I wonder if Mr. Barnes misses them too?

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

Given his professed love for the artwork of LP covers, I'd imagine he had great disdain for the 8-track.

LPs have a great vibe to them, despite the fact that they wear out, scratch easily, and don't store so well. I gotta say, I love the old records. I've got some old Louis Armstrong records that, sure, I could replace them with cds (and eventually will), but it feels much better to actually put the stylus in the groove and listen to the clicks and pops with that old music. Satchmo shouldn't be presented all slick and polished. The sound of the LP is appropriate.

I've also met few jazz enthusiasts who prefer cds. It's vinyl all the way for them.

[This message was edited by Chris Walke on 08 July 2003 at 03:10 PM.]

Jason Odd · From: Stawell, Victoria, Australia

I read it........

Hmm, yeah.. those pesky kids.

In the past people never taped things, had bootleg records or had libraries where they could borrow music, so now we have those no good CDs where all things are possible and the industry is in a terrible state.

Now we know that everyone still has a record player, despite a large chunk of CD consumers probably never having actually seen one in real life, so everyone will find it easy to go back to vinyl, even though their collections are full of old records that are really scratched and worn.

And of course all the old pressing plants and vinyl cutters are sitting there in pristine condition, just waiting for the day when people would reject CDs, which they can take anywhere, and it's much better to have wall to wall vinyl collection and try and get that car situated record player perfected.

He writes that:
----- In the days of 45s and LPs, my take is that more good weird stuff got through the cracks. Iggy and the Stooges and Captain Beefheart were on major labels. ---------

In the days of 45s and vinyl, the good Capt. Beefheart could barely sell rerords and got booted off various labels, as did the Stooges and the MC5 (at different times) who were on major label Elektra, and then as now the majors were looking to cash-in on youth trends.
Littel indie labels existed then and now, making all sorts of weird and wonderful music, and yes it's on CD I'm sure.

Next he writes, ------ It was a lot more involved to produce vinyl, so you kind of had to have your proverbial sh!t together a little more. Nowadays, an individual can make a cd of himself burping with his computer, and visually there will be very little difference between his effort and a major label's. -----------

Sure, and the guy that markets it at home has no advertising budget, no network other than perhaps live gigs or the internet (which does cost money, duh) and they have to bear all distro costs and so on.

Sometimes the home stuff is better, but by what standard, Danny Barnes' concept of a good recording or studio sound ain't everybody's ideal, so it's a moot point in that regards.

Most LP covers were bloody awful, from a design point of view, I personally say that 98% of what I've seen (and I collect) are quite mundane and reliant of trends of the time.

He doesn't like the CD cases and hates their size, while he's an egotistical elitist sonic audio quality snob of the most predictable variety.

He's assuming that everyone buying CDs was actually around buying the original vinyl versions, uh pops.. vinyl was starting to go in the late 1980s, since then we've had trance, techno, grunge, commercial grunge, post-grunge rock, emo, electronica, world music, nu-country, new-age, etc.
The nostalgia he has for vinyl is tied up with his generation of taste, a whole 'nother generation have a non vinyl outlook.

Even his concept of an album having two starts, two ends, and two middles, it's just what he knew and loved.
Man, how lame.. you have to get up and change it, no track shuffling.

What, he doesn't like as many songs as he used to per album?, maybe he should admit he's stuck in the past and unable to evolve, he's hit the wall.

I love his point about records being great to have because they're too hard to steal.

Thieves simply won't and don't take records because no-one will buy them, another great arguement there Danny boy.

Of course is that's all we had, then dudes would rip them along with the stereo.
If they were worth something like they used to be, then a thief wouldn't have to pinch a whole collection.

This topic is pretty basic and has the usual bias, eg: what was and existed in my youth totally rocked and was cool, what's around now sucks.

What a wanker.

Tony LaCroix · From: Austin, Texas, USA

I'm 26 years old. A couple of weeks ago I bought a turntable at a garage sale. The guy said it had a new cartridge. I didn't know what he was talking about. The other day my wife asked me what an LP was. She's never owned a record player and I have only used one once or twice. I got the thing working and found out what I had always suspected. This is truly inferior technology- obsolete for good reason.

Now, I agree with the author of the article on one crucial point. It's the record industry that is to blame for music piracy. They are like a jewelery vendor who sets up his stock on a cart by the beach and then leaves, hoping that no one will take anything without dropping a few bucks in the hat. Security is essential to any business. Find an insurance company that would insure the above jewler's stock against theft. Find a judge who would come down hard on someone who stole something from him.

If they don't want music to be pirated, they are going to have to find a way to make it unusable in any medium but the one they are selling. Big task? yep. But it's THEIR task. Not consumers', and NOT the law's.

[This message was edited by Tony LaCroix on 10 July 2003 at 10:55 AM.]

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

No one pining for the days of the vinyl LP here, huh?

I think the major thing that was lost was the album as a package, something that plays sequentially, one song leading into another. Shuffle play is the murderer of such a concept. Now I gotta admit, when I have guests at the house or if I just want background music while I'm performing life's mundane chores, throwing a couple discs in the changer and letting it play randomly is novel. I do it. We all do. But when I sit down to really listen to something, I like to hear it start to finish, hear how one song flows into the next. It's a part of the art of album making that is being lost, or at least is largely ignored. Why? Because no one will just sit down for 45 minutes and listen. Yes, with cds we have the choice of how we listen to our music, but LPs compelled us to pay attention...at least for 20 minutes or so. Which I think begs the question: are we actually listening to the music these days, or have we been programmed to listen for the easy payoff of the quick hook (which comes quicker and quicker these days...no sense building up to the chorus anymore)? Maybe we just program the two songs from the cd that they play on the radio...that way, we won't be bothered with finding out if the rest of the album is any good.

"Man, how lame.. you have to get up and change it..." Frightening. If it's not easy, it's lame. Our obsession with convenience prevents us from walking a few steps. Yeah, I'm guilty of this too, everytime I turn on the tv...and I shudder to think how lethargic our descendants will be, generations from now, when the ultimate in convenience is met (whatever THAT is). Such huge physical exertions as flipping records, dialing a phone, actually naming the food we want to eat from McDonald's, changing the TV or radio station, and preparing cookie dough are already things of the past.

Whoops. Topic drift.

Janice Brooks · From: Pleasant Gap Pa

Chris we need to have a topic for concept albums etc.

My 78's etc do take up more space then CD's but some of the music is priceless.

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Fred Jack · From: Bastrop, Texas 78602

I for one like vinyl! I used to drop a quarter in the jukebox and get six plays,
(yes six), and sit back and enjoy. To this day I love the hiss and the crackling of vinyl.CD's are convenient but for my listening pleasure much to "sterile" or " surgically clean".I prefer the vinyl sound but no one ask me.. they just up and changed. Of course I think the best tone is gotten in a honky tonk.Just my opinion. regards, fred

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

"I'm having a hard time figuring out why it costs $20 for a pre-recorded CD. And then, you're lucky if you like half of it."

I let this one slip by. I hear this comment very frequently, especially during discussions of file sharing. It makes me wonder, what are you listening to that most of the album is unsatisfactory?? A majority of my cds are chock full of songs that I enjoy. Sure, every now and again I pick up a cd and get burned, but that's not very often, certainly not often enough to make an issue out of it.

but that makes me think of the old 45's (or 78's). I think Barnes' point with getting music out on 45's is valid. It was a great way to get that one song you like (and the b-side). We have cd singles and EPs these days, but not with nearly the selection you used to be able to get. Working in cover bands over the years, I was always searching for a cd singles, but couldn't find anything but dance and techno singles. What's the deal with that?

David Doggett · Posted 11 Jul 2003 8:46 am

The only thing I miss about vinyl is the cover art. I have hundreds of LPs, some 45s and even some 78s. The 45s were a nice way to cop a single song. But the albums were heavey, took alot of shelf space, wore out quickly (especially at those -60s parties where they ended up sliding around under your feet, or other body parts), and you had to take care of the needle and keep replacing it. Good riddance.

On the other hand, when CDs first came out they told us they cost twice as much as vinyl LPs because the technology was expensive. Surprise, surprise - the price never came down as the technology got dirt cheap and became a mass item.

The current copying problem is a product of the industry's own greed and short-sightedness. I don't shed any tears, except for the marginal artists, who seem to get screwed financially in all eras regardless of the technology.

I love it that I can now buy a self-made CD from most live groups I go to hear in small clubs, who would never have been signed or able to produce a vinyl LP. I don't at all mind the $15 or less they usually charge, and many of them give away free tracks from their web sites.

Jason Odd · From: Stawell, Victoria, Australia

The thing is, I love vinyl, I used to work across the road from the last remaining pressing plant in my part of the world, it's still running I might add.

It's also a medium which has passed on, and is now a specialist product, some genres rely on it, some labels specialise in it.
Good for them.

The idea of a whole industry going backwards in some infantile attempt to stop piracy is a ludricous concept. That guy obviously has his opinion tainted by what he actually thinks is better.

Most people seem to buy music as a disposable form of entertainment, disposable in the sense that for them it will date, and for most people they stop musically evolving and stay within a common market or genre for the rest of their buying life.

The album concept is far from dead, the shuffle concept is something that people can choose to use, I rarely do, but I enjoy the ability to do so.

Personally I'm not suprised that CDs are no cheaper (and by the way, they're a lot more expensive here than Stateside, you guys have got it easy) than when they first came out.
It's rare to see a product that's not hardware to go down in price. They basically factor in that extra expense to cover the piracy and bootlegs that have been around.

If I want I can walk into a cheap shop and buy chaep knock offs of Toys related to most of the major films around in the last couple of years.
It's not like this was something no-one knew would happen, and if they say "oh, we possibly couldn't have predicted this.." well, I have no doubt they couldn't predict to what level, but software piracy preceeds the CD, it's out there.

Record labels have, A&R, label managers, cleaners, office staff (secretaries, assistants, accounts, payroll, copyright, I.T.), maintainence, dispatch, credits, warehouses, people who liason between department heads, data entry staff, the list goes on.
The bigger the label, the bigger the staff.

Of course, as a freind pointed out, someone who records an album for a label doesn't even have minimum wage.
You get an advance on your royalties, record an album using your advance, they own it, you have to wait until your advance is paid off before you get any money, so you go on the road and tour, great job.

I've got about 30 maybe 40 singles, I've been buying music for half of my life and I like to have an album in either form, sometimes it's a weak album with a lot of filler, but overall I've had a pretty good run.
Major labels rely on their big sellers, but not unlike Hollywood, they'll buy into a concept, throw it up against the wall to see if it will stick.
Good stuff gets lost, some crap sells, and every now and then a gem finds it's way out into the mass market.

Personally a hiss and crackle can be wonderful, it might add ambience and an earthiness to a record, but with a whole generation raised without that sense of nostalgia, it would be a disaster to go back to a format now relegated to specalised markets.
Most people who love the old crackle probably don't really enjoy much music made past the advent of the compact disc anyway.

By the way, a great CD to play all the way through is the Gotan Project's 'La Revancha Del Tango' made in France with dance producers with Argentinian folk performers.
Majestic, a beautiful blend of modern ideas with the old world, and it's on an indie label that has distro in Europe, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, America, Canada and probably a lot of other places. I'm listening to it now, quite a charming album from start to finish.

Don Walters · From: Saskatchewan Canada

erik · Posted 12 Jul 2003 2:21 am

I think i've posted this once before: At the risk of sounding a bit peculiar, I've always liked vinyl because you could see the label while it spins and it gives you the feeling that the band is playing for you. I still think good vinyl is punchier and warmer.

I agree with the writer's comments that artists stuff too much material on a CD. You're suppose to leave them wanting. I'd rather pay a few bucks less for a CD with six or seven tunes on them than one with 13. More is not better. In fact I apply that concept to all things I buy. More = more waste.

[This message was edited by erik on 12 July 2003 at 03:30 AM.]

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

"I own 753 LP's and I can't recall even one where I liked every cut on the album."

Ouch. I can't even imagine.

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

"I'd rather pay a few bucks less for a CD with six or seven tunes on them than one with 13."

Singer-songwriter Freedy Johnston is planning on releasing something like 3 short cds instead of one long one, arguing that all the songs are more likely to be heard if the listening sessions are shorter. Sounds like a headache, from a marketing point of view, but I wonder how it will work. His stuff really doesn't sell well as it is. I think he's gonna fall deeper into obscurity, which is a shame. He's written some great stuff.

Jason Odd · From: Stawell, Victoria, Australia

Maybe it's an American thing, after all Bill Wyman once commented that in the UK album buyers wanted all new songs, while Stateside they wanted the hit singles.
Maybe nothing has changed.

Okay, I'm being a bit of a wise guy, but I'd say that I like 99% of the music I purchase, I prefer a nice long CD, but I expect a long CD by an artist who's had two years to make the sucker.

Dave Boothroyd · From: Staffordshire Moorlands

We recorded a live album recently by a guy who was very big in the 70's, though I don't know how well he sold in the USA, Steve Harley (Cockney Rebel).
One of the things he said on stage was that the public are very demanding. In the days of LP's an artist had to come up with maybe forty minutes of music to make an album. Now, with CDs, we want 65 or 70 minutes. "It's a lot of songs man! A lot of songs. You've gotta do some living to write all that!"
A good thought!
Cheers
Dave

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

I always disliked the pop/hiss/crackle/rumble sound of LPs and 45s. The only benefit I could see from such sounds is that they gave you an idea of how loud the volume was set before the music started. CDs and other digital media can really fool you on that front.

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Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?