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Topic: Dick McIntire sustain |
Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2003 6:34 am |
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As I was listening to the Trade Winds album yesterday and marvelling at the incredible sustain of Dick McIntire's guitar, I got to thinking about something I'd read about him using a longscale Frypan with a modified pickup (bigger magnets?) and what effect that had on his sustain.
My question, what are the factors that contributed to his unique sound (besides
the obvious "his hands") and a question for
Rick Aiello and Jason Lollar - have you or are you considering cooking up a pickup that would attempt to emulate his sound?
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 15 Sep 2003 6:54 am
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| Bill, I talked with Rick about this before and he said that the thickness of a 1.5 Ricky pu doesn't really change anything when it comes to the flux lines of the magnetic field. Dewitt Scott also has the greatest sustain and tone and Dewitt told me his fry pan had extra thick mags also? Rick has a modification he can do to the inside ends of the Ricky 1.5 shoes that help's the flux lines go further out to the ends which should give you not only a great sound on 6 string steel but also allow you to use the same pickup on an 8 string, which I am slowly trying to build myself as we speak. The modification is also used on Rick's 10 string pedal steel shoes. I love Dick McIntires's sustain and tone, it has alot of garlic to it. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 15 September 2003 at 07:58 AM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2003 8:10 am
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Jesse is right on the money ...
For those of y'all who don't know what Bill L. is referring to ...
Early Magnets ... scroll down.
Without boring you out of your skull ... the magnetization of Hardened Steel is a surface phenomenon ... unlike alnico, ceramic, rare earth magnets ... where the magnetism is "thru and thru".
Basically, there are small regions of the material ... called domains .. that, when exposed to a magnetic field ... align. This really means that the unpaired electrons' spin (clockwise or counterclockwise) in these sections is the same ...
In steel magnets ... it is only the domains close to the surface that align.
Several factors influence the strength of the magnetic field in steel mags. The % carbon, the particular alloy composition, ... but most importantly ... the amount of Martensite (the really hard, brittle form of steel) present.
The old cobalt steel used in Rickys was great for magging ... and they got it super hard (and very brittle .. right Bill C. .. ha,ha). It is not commercially available anymore ... so we (Creller and me) use an alloy that is real close to the cobalt steel used then. Bill C. had a chunk of original analyzed.
Through a bunch of experiments .. I found the most effective way to "bump" up the strength of the mags is to ..
#1 Get the steel as hard as possible ... Cryogenics after heat treating was the answer.
#2 Increasing the surface area .... thats why 1.5" are more desirable. I have taken this to another level by "laminating" thinner steel magnets together ... more surface area ...
So to get back to Bill L.'s question ... Those beefy looking mags found on the earliest frypans may look impressive ... but they have little bearing on output and tone (there is a small increase in surface area associated with the greater thickness)...
The whole unit is much different than a standard Ricky though ... gap size of the mags, bobbin size, mounting holes, etc. ... they are not interchangable with Rickys say 1933 and up ...
You asked ... 
PS: Jason's "recipe" for his bobbins would have Andy I., Dick M. and Sol H. lining up at his doorstep 
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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 December 2003 at 02:28 PM.] |
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Karl Oberlander
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2003 9:06 am
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I'm not sure when Trade Winds was produced but I have a picture of Dick McIntire with endorsing the Dickenson guitar dated June 231, 1939. Again I'm not sure if he played the Dickerson exclusively but I would suppose he had several kinds of guitars.
This is from The Hawaiian Steel Guitar and it's Great Hawaiian Musicians.
Kobe
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Gibson D-8 Console Grande - Stringmaster T-8 - Alkire EHarp D-10
Fender Super Reverb
kobe@austin.rr.com
http://home.austin.rr.com/kobeco
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2003 9:17 am
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Trade winds is a compilation/restoration of 78's and radio transcriptions done by Bruce Clarke and Cumquat records.
Trade Winds
Although Dick M. and Sol H. endorsed Dickersons (for students) they performed and recorded with Rickys.
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Karl Oberlander
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2003 9:20 am
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Ok, I found the exact quote:
"On a guest appearance in Detroit he was presented with a new black and white Rickenbacher by the sponsor of the concert, but no matter which guitar he played it was difficult to detect any significant change in the tone he produced. On the long scale frypan he played, the horseshoe magnets were much thicker than on regular production models, so itmight have been custon made for him. There is speculation that he might have filled the hollow necks of some of his guitars with plaster of Paris to get greater sustain. His tunings were E7, C#m7 and F#9."
Hope that helps,
Kobe
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Gibson D-8 Console Grande - Stringmaster T-8 - Alkire EHarp D-10
Fender Super Reverb
kobe@austin.rr.com
http://home.austin.rr.com/kobeco
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Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2003 9:24 am
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Is there any hope for us out there with post-war 1.25 pickups or will we forever suffer the humiliating shame of "pickup envy"? 
Rick - have you tried any experiments with 1.25 pickups to increase the sustain? |
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Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2003 9:26 am
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| BTW, I keep getting email about a "patch" that will increase my sustain, but I'm dubious.... |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2003 4:31 pm
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| Dick had the opportunities to have his pick of all the fry pans at the Rick factory. Just like the stars of today can go in and try em all out and take the best ones, so did he. And he did indeed fill the cavitiy with plaster or whatever the stuff is that has been having a chemical reaction and eating away the cast aluminum. How much it helped in the sustain dept. is debatable, as they usually don't even need more. I think he did that to rein in the overtone 'problem'(I know Prof. Rick!) that most pans have. |
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George Keoki Lake
From:
Edmonton, AB., Canada
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Posted 15 Sep 2003 10:30 pm
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| Fellas, I honestly feel that, as with the human voice, tone is a very personal thing. Dick McIntire's beautiful tone has never been duplicated by anyone to my knowledge, (Correct me if I am wrong), and I doubt it ever will be. Just as the voices of Frank Sinatra or Bing Crosby will never be duplicated, or for that matter, the lovely tenor voice of Dick McIntire himself. Both Dirk Vogel in Minneapolis and Hal Smith in British Columbia own two of Dick's old frypans. While both of these gentlemen are excellent steel guitarists in their own right, neither has been able to capture the identical tone Dick produced when he owned and played those actual guitars. Tone and touch are so personal, I guess it is much like fingerprints in that sense....(?) [This message was edited by George Keoki Lake on 15 September 2003 at 11:31 PM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2003 3:29 pm
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| Denny, thanx for the link to your shop and amptone. On your homepage you have a pic of a wood body Rick in the shape and overall design of a bakelite. Is it at your N.Shore store? Is it the same one that was on ebay a couple of years ago? Have you had the opportunity to play it, if so, what can you say about it(history, sound, const.)? |
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