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Topic: How much does it bother you? |
David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2001 9:54 pm |
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People stealing music (and software), that is.
I went home for Christmas, and delivered 3 copies of Paul Franklin's Christmas CD to family members (had to keep one for myself). A comment by one (name not given to protect the guilty) was "you didn't have to buy 3, you could've just bought one and let us copy the rest".
I was floored. I suppose I should've gone into a fit of rage, but somehow I didn't. These same people "went together" to buy a common tax preparation program, making copies of it for each other, "splitting" the costs.
Mind you, these people are well-off, Christian (to most people, they'd appear to be "better" Christians than I). With no excuse whatsoever for their actions.
Unfortunately, it's typical from what I've seen. A friend who's a senior pilot for an airline (making over twice what I do -- and I'm prety well-paid) has daughters who flagrantly download and make CD's from Napster-clones, etc. and he doesn't seem to care. Friends at work (making as much or more than I do) either copy themselves or have children who do, and they think nothing of the practice.
Outside of those in the music business, is that your experience of people, too? It boggles my mind.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 5:00 am
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...and David, why is it that so many of those with the "Fish" symbol on the back of their vehicle seem to violate every speed-limit and traffic control device on the street! You can almost see the fish hiding his face with embarrassment......  |
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Larry Miller
From:
Dothan AL,USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 6:50 am
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| David, it's too bad I couldn't download someone to install the dishwasher I bought for my wife for Christmas, as it is, they want $300.oo to install it. Musicians get screwed at every turn! |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 6:53 am
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David, I don't think people realize how an artist makes his money. Or should I say a writer. Most never look at the credits to see who wrote a song. They think if the artist sings it they wrote it. I think others are just plain cheap. They would squeeze a buffalo nickel until the Indian was riding the buffalo. It's unnerving but you or I can't stop it. All we can do is speak our mind. Hey Larry, they install for $275 up here. I did my own with a little help from a friend. Nothing to it. Just follow the instructions.
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1985 Emmons push-pull, Session 500, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele
[This message was edited by Craig A Davidson on 29 December 2001 at 06:56 AM.] |
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Pat Burns
From:
Branchville, N.J. USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 7:34 am
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..what does being Christian have to do with it anyway? Would you say "Oh, they were Jewish, that explains it"? (or Muslim or Atheist or Buddist or Animist or whateverist) or would you say the even more insidious "Oh, they weren't Christian, that explains it"?....of course you wouldn't..so why use that adjective at all?....having said that, Happy New Year to everybody, Christians too!  ..
..on the subject, I've certainly been educated by this forum not to engage in nor condone such practices, but the truth is that I'm not an active advocate against the practice, I guess because I don't have any skin in the game..
..Larry, you should buy your appliances here in N.J...they cost $300 more but the installation is free!..[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 29 December 2001 at 07:38 AM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 7:38 am
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Christian or not, "God-fearing" or not, the ethics of a great many people go "out the window" when there's money involved. It's called "rationalization", isn't it?
Also, when ever I see "well-to-do Christians", I always think about that camel/needle trick. |
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Janice Brooks
From:
Pleasant Gap Pa
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 9:02 am
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It's a privelage to get promotionel copys
and a pleasure to buy everything else.
Usualy if I get tapes etc it's radio shows.
My feeling is that I get years out of a 15 dollar CD that I don't get out of cigeretss and gambling.
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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 9:33 am
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| Quote: |
| what does being Christian have to do with it anyway? |
Nothing, I suppose. Even an atheist CAN come up with a code of morality that prohibits stealing.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 9:39 am
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| Quote: |
| It's called "rationalization", isn't it? |
I've heard more "rationalizations" than I care to hear.
Of course, being guilty of that myself, I guess I can't complain, huh? (eg, "when they set speed limits based on safety and road design, instead of on [illegal] federal mandates and/or for revenue generation, THEN I'll worry about breaking them").
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 9:55 am
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Favorite rationalization? "Well, how's it any different than listening to a friend's CD, or listening to the radio?" (If you have to ask . . .)
Favorite misconception? "Well, the bands make all their money touring and selling T-shirts anyway." (Maybe Garth Brooks, George Strait, Dixie Chicks, etc. Not to mention the songwriters).
Most hypocritical? The artists who support outright theft, because the "evil" record companies are "screwing them". (The worst offender is the gal who played in the movie about Hugh Hefner -- forget her name at the moment).
Then there are those who come out publically (on a message board) and say they want a DVD-RW so that they can buy DVD's, copy them, and then sell the originals on Ebay. And then they wonder why the RIAA comes out with crazy ideas like wanting to ban DVD-RW's or selling used CD's/DVD's or taxing blank media. (Not that I agree with those ideas -- but I can understand the frustration that leads to proposing them).
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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Pat Burns
From:
Branchville, N.J. USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 11:08 am
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| Quote: |
| Even an atheist CAN come up with a code of morality that prohibits stealing. |
..the point, in case you missed it, is that a Jew, Muslim, Buddist CAN come up with a code of morality too, and they do...Christians don't have the market on morality cornered, and thieves come in all persuasions too..
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 11:54 am
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| ....then I guess that settles it...we can abide by the morals and laws that we personally approve of, and ignore the rest... |
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 11:59 am
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I didn't intend to exclude Jews/Muslims/Buddhists, etc. If my family and I were Jewish, I'd have used Jews in my statement.
Being non-Christian doesn't absolve one of adhering to the fairly simple concept of not stealing from others. However, it bothers me MORE when self-professed Christians blatantly acknowledge/promote theft of music/software. Why? Because it reflects poorly on a group of which I'm a member.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 12:11 pm
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| Quote: |
| ....then I guess that settles it...we can abide by the morals and laws that we personally approve of, and ignore the rest... |
Basically, that's true, I suppose. Yet we'd better be prepared to pay the consequences (both here and in the hereafter) of our actions.
BTW, this country was formed essentially by people ignoring laws/taxes of a government they felt was corrupt/immoral.
Of course, there are those who essentially argue that copyright law is immoral. I'd STRONGLY disagree with them on that.
I suppose I'd better stop on the asides, before Bob moves this to off-topic.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 12:26 pm
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| The next time I play in a bar or a club and someone wants to record my playing--usually I would be honored and this would flatter me up until now. But now the answer will be NO, not until you buy me a beer! I guess we can blame all this on Edison and Marconni(SP?)--they started it all. Joe |
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 12:38 pm
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How about if I give ya five bucks, and let you buy your own beer?
That's an interesting topic, though (live recording). I suspect that most ARTISTS wouldn't really mind video/audio recording of concerts (let's not let people hook into the sound board, and confine them to their seats, though). In fact, I suspect many (if not most) would actually SUPPORT it. I think "Grateful Deal" did/does.
Now the record labels, on the other hand. Or those who promote the concerts. That's a different story.
I know that at the few can club parties at Fan Fair I've attended, they don't mind video/audio recording. I suspect, however, that they'd mind greatly if I were to start mass-producing VHS tapes of the event and selling them on Ebay.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 12:44 pm
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Another interesting development some may have missed. The first album in the US with anti-MP3-encoding was released recently.
Somehow, it's supposed to prevent people from converting the files into MP3 files. I'm not sure how it works, or how effective it is.
I think that's the wrong tactic to take. First, if it hasn't already been "hacked", I'm sure it will be soon.
But mainly, there are quite a few people who want to make legitimate MP3 copies of CD's for their own personal use. I've about decided to make an MP3-server for my home, to store all my albums, where I can easily access the music across a home network. There are also systems out there (or soon to be) that will integrate a system like that into a person's home stereo. Goodbye to those 200-disc changers. (I maxed out at a six-disc changer).
I think releasing albums like that will do more harm than good.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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Michael Holland
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 1:14 pm
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| There's a reason it's called piracy. It's stealing, and I seem to remember something about a Commandment regarding that. Anytime I talk to someone who defends downloading and copying music I ask them if it would be okay for them to be paid for only one hour out of every 500 hours they work. It's the same thing. Just like making videos at steel guitar shows and distributing them without paying the writers, publishers, artists and musicians. |
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Andy Alford
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 2:39 pm
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| What forum have I found? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 3:45 pm
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Andy, this is the "If they want a recording, someone will provide it for 'em". But keep in mind...
Everyone steals...the difference is only in degree. |
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Bill Llewellyn
From:
San Jose, CA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 4:52 pm
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I think the reason people buy software or music and then feel comfortable (incorrectly so) dubbing it for friends is that they feel they fully own the software/music after they purchase it. After all, the CD has become their property, right? So they can do what they want with it--or so they think. (Or rather so the want to think.) The issue is that it's easy to overlook authorship or performance rights which stay with the writer or the performer. I think dubbing exclusively for the owner's personal use (a copy for the car, the original for the den) should be allowed, and it seems such use is protected by the Home Recording Rights Act. But downloading software or music for which one has not purchased a legitimate copy is not appropriate. I personally have never visited the Napster (or its clones) site. I have a stake in all this... I have my own CDs for sale online (see "My Music" link, below) and I'd prefer people bought them from me rather than dub them (though I'm hard pressed to figure who on Earth would want to dub my material!).
An interesting aside.... blank DAT tapes and music (not data) CD blanks (as well as other forms of blank consumer recording media, I believe) have surcharges built into their purchase prices to compensate for unauthorized dubbing. Now that's a tricky one, because some could argue that the presence of such surcharges make dubbing ok.... after all, it's getting paid for. I'm not sure I want to go there....
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Bill (steel not out of the woodshed) | MSA Classic U12 | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50? |
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 5:12 pm
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| Quote: |
| An interesting aside.... blank DAT tapes and music (not data) CD blanks (as well as other forms of blank consumer recording media, I believe) have surcharges built into their purchase prices to compensate for unauthorized dubbing. Now that's a tricky one, because some could argue that the presence of such surcharges make dubbing ok.... after all, it's getting paid for. I'm not sure I want to go there.... |
I agree, that's a weird situation. I don't want to pay a "piracy" surcharge for blank CD-R media, even when I make copies for myself of CD's (for the car -- either to get more music on a CD or to avoid the risk of somebody stealing my CD's which could be hard to replace). That's why I don't buy "music CD-R media".
On the other hand, having that surcharge almost does (as you state) make it seem that copying is OK as long as you buy the higher-priced media. I disagree with that notion. (Interestingly enough, I've seen one guy who actually argues that the manufacturers of CD-recorders and the media DO [not just should] give kickbacks to the music industry as compensation. I'm not sure where he came up with that one.)
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Sorry if the topic seems too "off topic". Other than the brief excursions into religion / speeding / federal gov't issues, it seemed related enough to music to me.
I'm semi-well-known on some other forums for my anti-piracy "fanaticism", and I'm often met with the justification of "oh, nobody really pirates the stuff, they just download it and listen, and they'll buy more CD's because of it".
Well, *hopefully* that's true, but based on my limited experience, it's not. And this Christmas simply made me even more convinced that piracy is more of an issue than many people believe. Perhaps RIAA/etc overstate the impact, but I remain skeptical that it's just a "small problem".
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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Jack Shults
From:
Canadian, Oklahoma U.S.A.
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 7:55 pm
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David,
I see that your profile includes the line of being the unofficial Photographer for the Wilkinsons.
The same people who gripe about people copying music have no quams at all about copying a photograph which is covered by the same laws as the music.
Photographers have had their work stolen by musicians and others since the beginning of photography and everybody thinks that is just OK.
A photograph taken by a professional photogtrapher is just as much an original work as a song or an album.
If we are going to holler about thievery, let's holler about all the thieves.
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Jack Shults
MSA U-12 |
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2001 11:47 pm
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| Quote: |
| Photographers have had their work stolen by musicians and others since the beginning of photography and everybody thinks that is just OK. |
I'm not aware of that being a problem. (Not saying it isn't true, it's just news to me). Care to elaborate? [Edit: in particular, I'm not aware of those in the music business stealing photographer's work]
I'm not a pro photographer, and have probably given away more stuff than I'll ever sell.
Certainly the digital age makes it easier to steal photography, just like it does to music and movies.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
[This message was edited by David Pennybaker on 30 December 2001 at 02:47 AM.] |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 30 Dec 2001 3:50 am
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Copying is done in all areas. Because it's done obviously doesn't make it right, but it is.
Made in Taiwan autobody parts is one example.
As far as music, I guess then next time the bandleader hands me a tape with one song on it and tells me to learn it I'm going to have to refuse it. Right.
Speaking of the Wilkinsons, what has happened to them. The local "country" stations aren't playing their stuff anymore. Did they pack up and go home to Canada? |
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