Heavier gauge strings on short scale C6 ?

Gerald Ross · From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

I tried an experiment yesterday with my Bakelite Rick (22" scale, CEGACE tuning). I installed heavier gauged strings.

I was using (semi flats)
.15
.18
.24 w
.24 w (not a typo)
.30 w
.36 w

I installed (regular old electric guitar strings)
.18
.22
.26 w
.28 w
.32 w
.38 w

My initial feeling is that my intonation is much better and my split string slants are more in tune. I'm not sure if I like the feel of the tighter strings though, you have to press a bit harder.

Any thoughts? What gauges do you guys use with these short scale instruments.

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 24 August 2003 at 06:14 AM.]

Jeff Strouse · From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA

Gerald -

Do you think the split string slants being more in tune could be attributed to the strings being a little fatter?

I use the semi-flats except I have a 22 gauge where you have your first 24...

Gerald Ross · From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

A year or so ago I was using the Scotty's Brand SIT set that had a .22 plain for the third string but found the sound of that 3rd string tuned to "A" "squirrely" and imprecise, kind of a "blatt" sound, so I switched to a wound string and got a truer tone (I still use the SIT set on my National TriCone and they sound great... longer scale though, hmmm)

I just played my Rick for an hour this morning in this new configuration and find the the tighter heavier strings allow me to dig in more with my right hand and the heavier gauges stay in tune with each other easier. I may switch the 1st string .17 and the 2nd to a .20, they feel a little too tight.

Maybe it's just me. I was never able to get a decent sound out of a solid body electric guitar (Strat, Tele etc.) that was strung with .09 or .10 for the high E string. I always knocked the guitar out of tune.

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

I am using on the 22.5" :



E  .017


C  .018


A  .022P


G  .026 FW


E  .032 FW


C# .038 FW

I like the top strings to be close in gauge ... ala Ray Montee ... but having them all say .016 ... as Ray advocates ... makes the A too floppy for me... so I'm more of a "Half-Montee" guy

I know lots of folks don't like Flatwounds .. but besides the obvious decrease in "noise" ... they add a certain "ghostly" sound that the brighter semi and regular wound just ain't got.

I use them on my acoustics steels also.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 03 September 2003 at 06:29 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

I have found that heavier strings make my Magnatones sound a hundred times better. I have often wondered what gauges Dick McIntire was using on his steels? I don't think he used short scale, his tone was very thick, like heavier strings and I don't think it was just the amp and long scale Ric's he used. Back in those days guitar players were limited to a small range of string gauges (Black Diamonds), this must have effected steel player's quite a bit. I have a 20 yr. old hybrid Yamaha guitar amp (tube/transistor) that I am currently using for steel. It works pretty good and gives me that Dick McIntire thickness and sustain with the heavy strings that I use. I love Don Helms sound and I think he used lighter gauge strings, so maybe his Gibson pickup had alot to do with his sound? One thing is for sure, if I didn't use heavier gauge strings on the Magnatone's, they would sound weak, with alot of unwanted treble. I use very heavy strings on my Fender strat and tune down a half step so's I can bend the strings. On our cheapo teles we use slinky's and tune regular. The slinky's are easier to use and do fancy trick bending with, but the heavy strings are addictive with their fat tone. The fat tone is why I perfer them on steel. Heavier strings limit the number of tunings you can reach on a single Hawaiian steel tho.

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Don't you find this to be true?

When comparing different guage strings, kinds of strings, or brands of strings, one must be careful to change the strings from one set to the other within the time frame of a week, or so. This way you won't be fooled by comparing the sound of an old string to a new one.

I have found that changing strings (to a different brand), that that brand sounded better to me right away. And, later had to admit that the better sound was actually because of the fact that they were just newer strings.

Rick

[This message was edited by Rick Collins on 24 August 2003 at 11:34 AM.]

Dana Duplan · From: Ramona, CA

I've found that with my 7-string Ric, since there is no adjustment for individual pole pieces, that I'm having to fool around with gages to get a good output balance. I started with the 3 .016 idea, and moved from there--I can't remember what's on there now, but I believe I've got a .017, .018, and .022, but I'm still not real happy with the balance--especially the 7th string==super loud!
Anyone else have trouble with string balance?
D

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

C6 guages: E-.015p, C-.018p, A-.022p, G-.026w, E-.032w, C-.038w

------------------
“Uh~” ƒƒ< “BJ” wknsg®
Franklin, D–10 9/8
Fender, T–8 “The Custom”
Peavey, Classic 50 - 212
Enhancer, E–LG
Red–Rajah, “Phoenix”
Goodrich, L–120
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

These are the gauges I use on my C6 Magnatone MOT.

Heavy Side (tight strings) C6 tuning short scale:

E = .016
C = .022
A = .024
G = .026
E = .032
C = .038

Dead zero (middle of the road) string gauge C6 tuning short scale:

E = .014
C = .017
A = .022
G = .023
E = .029
C = .036

*How important is it to keep the upper strings close to the same gauge, is this something that only sounds good on really good steels $ ?

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 25 August 2003 at 09:52 AM.]

Gerald Ross · From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Well after four hours of experimenting I think this may be my new configuration for short scale C6, at least for a while:

.17
.20
.26w
.28w
.32w
.38w

I agree with Jesse... the steelers of the 30's and 40's had a limited range of string gauges available. I'm guessing they all used heavier gauges.

Listen to the way they bounce off, hammer-on and trampoline off the open strings on their short scale electrics. You really can't do that and get a good tone unless you have a substantial heavy gauged string.

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 25 August 2003 at 10:46 AM.]

Chris Scruggs · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

I used to just use 10 string C6 pedal steel sets because they are easily available. I changed because the top strings where too loose on my short scale guitars.

Here is what I use now for 22 1/2" C6:

E .015
C .018
A .022
G .026w
E .030w
C#.036w
A .042w
A .068w

But for my 24 1/2" Stringmaster, I still use "pedal" gauges:

E .014
C .017
A .020
G .024w
E .030w
C#.036w
A .042w
A .068w

I like them a little loose on the low strings since it makes less bar noise. It also sounds a little more "floppy", which is what I want from those lower notes.

Chris

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

I have tried the heavier gauges on my Custom for several weeks, but; have gone back to the lighter gauges.
1st. E .014p
2nd. C .017p
3rd. A .020p
4th. G .024w
5th. E .030w
6th. C# .036w
7th. C .038w
8th. Lo-A .070w
The reason for .038w on the 7th. is because it lowers to A, and the .070w on the 8th. raises to Lo-B, in the B11 Tuning, along with C# on the 2nd., F# on the 4th., and D# on the 5th..
This is the correct B11 Tuning I have in JB's personal letter. (not the gauges, just the pitches)
Lo-B,A,C#,D#,F#,A,C#,E. He also told me you should be able to retune in 30 sec.! I'm still working on that!

------------------
“Big John” {[(<< Uh~
Franklin, D–10 9/8
Fender, T–8 “The Custom”
Peavey, Classic 50 - 212
Enhancer, E–LG
Red–Rajah, “Phoenix”
Goodrich, L–120
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Chris or anyone; If you want to eliminate bar-noise/buzz/rattle on all your strings, you owe it to yourself to try the Phoenix Red Rajah Tone-Bars. Check the Links on the bottom of Page2. of the website below!

------------------
“Big John” {[(<< Uh~
Franklin, D–10 9/8
Fender, T–8 “The Custom”
Peavey, Classic 50 - 212
Enhancer, E–LG
Red–Rajah, “Phoenix”
Goodrich, L–120
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Hey Ric, ole buddy.........
I believe I'm now using Gibson #22 on the first three string positions with an unwound
or plain 4th string and small guaged strings for the bottom two.
Being able to play any of those first four strings during a melody, whether singly or with a harmony note, is so much prettier and it delivers no "break" in continuity when they're all the same guage as it does when you're picking involves different guaged strings.
I don't understand this talk about having to have HEAVIER GUAGE strings to keep them from sagging or whatever. Too much weight or down pressure with your left hand is the
problem, it would seem to me. TOUCH & TONE
means more than stringing it up and pulling on those wires. A light touch with both hands and a rolling action with the picking fingers is the area of concentration.
Some folks actually have been observed PULLING or PLUCKING strings like they were going to tear them off of the guitar. Others make dents in their fret boards by the improper use of the bar/bar hand.
Beautiful music requires finese.......it's not a mechanical project altho' some try to play in that manner. Subtle movements bring lingering sounds that are pleasant to the ear.
On 3-string forward slants, the sound should be EQUAL on all strings.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Ray, I was simply commenting on your (and Carl's) observations that having the same gauge top strings (ala JB in the Bakelite days) was an interesting and worthy consideration.

On many occasions you advocated using 3 "second strings" ... 0.016 guage.

Ray's Strings

When I tried that .. I found the .016 or .017 A string to be too "saggy" for me ... regardless of the "touch" employed.

If you have since moved on to .022s on top ... why the switch ?

And do you find this combination (all 22s vs all 16s) more pleasing ?

George Rout · From: St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Hi guys. I'm a little late coming into this thread. I'm 66 (not quite as elderly as Keoki), but back in the days of "Black Diamond" Hawaiian guitar strings, there was only heavy gauge. Never heard of "light" or "extra light" until somewhat recent times. All the good ole Rickys and Gibsons and Harmonys, Supros, Nationals etc, etc. all sounded good. Geo

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Ray, can you please explain this :

Does a Gibson #22 stand for .022 guage string? How can you tune a .022 gauge string up to E without breaking the string? I can see it working on the C, A, G, strings O.K. but it's not possible to do on the high E string?

**I stand corrected, must be thinking long scale guitar again.

What did the high E sound like for sustain and thickness? Hey, bring on the science, can't get enough of it.

Ray, are you saying this was the main early honky tonk Hawaiian Steel setup? And does it only work on short scale because of the tensions involved? Since you are a C6 pro, is C6 and A6 the best tunings to use it on?

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 02 September 2003 at 09:29 AM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Jesse, I just pulled an .022P and a .024P up to an E note (329.63 Hz) ...

They didn't break ... but they are sure taut

Here is a cool Tension Calculator ...

Seems an .015P E has a tension of 12.9 kg (28.4 lb) and a .022P E is 27.7 kg (60.9 lb)...

17 kg is the authors recommended max ...

Sorry about the science/math

------------------

www.horseshoemagnets.com

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 02 September 2003 at 03:14 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Wow, this is some interesting info. So, this is the set up "Jerry Byrd" was using when he was doing early honky tonk C6 recording's? Ray, you out there? Is this information in the JB book that just came out? Ray, how did you first discover this string gauge setup? Was it from JB himself when you guys were hanging out? I hear a great historical lesson on the evolution of touch and tone here!

Ron Whitfield · From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA

Jesse, the three 16's has been almost a secret for many years. Jerry certainly didn't tell anybody unless they figured it out and asked him personally. I got it from somebody who did just that many years later, and was kind enuf to impart it to me(courtesy of everybodys friend, Ray Montee).

[This message was edited by Ron Whitfield on 02 September 2003 at 12:56 PM.]

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Every time I attempt to be straight forward, sincere and helpful too.....someone here or there takes offense by it. Before I start to address the questions asked of me, let me say, anyone that knows me, or has heard me play, knows I'm EXPERT at absolutely nothing!
I can only offer what "I know" in an attempt to provide a reasonable response.
Rick.....thank you for your kind words. YOU, my good man, are the multi-facited expert on a wide range of technical subjects.
I admire you for this expertise. I value your forum contributions. Have truly enjoyed your fine CD's.
Dana........never really encountered the problem you describe. My thought however would be to experiment "tilting" your pickup with the adjustment screws. Lower the bass notes, if you can, I'd think. Good Luck!
Gerald I respectfully disagree with your last remark.......but so what? No big deal.
John.....never experienced what you describe.
Rick, you asked why I made an obvious change in my top three string guages. I'm at this moment looking at a package of Gibson USA...the world's finest strings....wrappers. On the top pkg., I've scribbled in 16 guage for the top three strings; 20/22 guage for the fourth string;
26/24 guage for the fifth string; 28 for the next and lastly, 32. Yes, these should be written as .032 or whatever. I apologize.
I seem to recall the reference to .022 guage strings somewhere in my JB materials.
At this moment I must say, I could be wrong, but I'm confident I did see it, and change to it. Never had a problem I routinely change from C6th; E; A6th; or C#min....and never feel the need to change strings to accomplish this.
I'm no Jerry Byrd and have never made any such claim but I have personally observed and heard him change tunings on the band stand without benefit of an electronic tuner,
or changing strings, etc. I've seen him tweak a string here or there if it was giving him fits.........getting out of tune.
That's life in the big city, right?
YES! Jesse, that should have been written
.022. I did error! My mistake! I apologize.
I tune that guage string to "E" all of the time and have no problem so I must respectfully disagree with you on this point.
You're still a nice guy and top flight musician. My experience simply tells me a different story.
Jesse, you make reference to Jerry Byrd's early days of 'HONKY TONK HAWAIIAN" playing.
What do you describe as being JB's "HONKY TONK PLAYING STYLE"? I'm listening at this very moment to Jerry Byrd playing on the Grand Ole Opry with Red Foley during the late
1940's. His "sound" way back then, far outshines any current steeler at the ISGC in St.Louis, IMHO. Is this the Honky Tonk you were referring to? I can't imagine!
Please give me an example I can hear...eh?
On one of your other points....I'm not a scientist. I can't answer that one.
By no means do I consider myself a real pro but merely one that has studied hard and tried hard most of my life, to perfect the "sound", "tone", "style" that I prefer to hear over the multitude of options we all have to listen to.
"USE ON WHAT"? I didn't understand that point, sorry.
"HONKY TONK C6th" relating to Jerry Byrd.
You really have me confused on that point. I'd truly appreciate a clarifcation.
I believe JB mentions this stuff in his book. I don't really recall. Yes, I do have the book and enjoyed it immensely. Do get a copy. It might be helpful for you.
I learned about this from Jerry Byrd himself, as I've been a life-long student of his. I've never visited his studio in Harry's Music Shoppe in Hawaii but I have been in his Nashville home.
You know very well that Jerry Byrd NEVER hung out with me or vice versa..... If he met me on the street he'd likely have no idea who I was. However, this wonderful man and fabulous musician did more for me musically than any one else; next in line would be this Steel Guitar Forum.
Were you just poking fun at me or what? God will get you for irritating an old man.
Take a little time to study Jerry Byrd in depth.......and you could learn a lot regardless of what you play....pedal or non-pedal. A lot to be learned there.
Ron Whitfield, thank you so very much. Your kind words are appreciated. You're a good man. God Bless!

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Ray, sorry if my "Half-Montee" comment caused any problems ... I wanted to point out that there was "somethin' to" having the melody strings the same gauge (or close to it).

By goin' to .022s ... you showed that its not the gauge itself that's important ... its the "equivalence factor". It also solves my "floppy .016 A".

It seems that there are two factors involved in appropriate string choice ... the tension on the string and the stiffness of the string.

Having a string that is very taut offers up excellent tone (clear harmonic content).

Having a string that is very stiff produces inharmonicity problems by limiting its movement.

It's the tension to stiffness ratio that dictates the effectiveness of a string ... the higher the ratio ... the better.

In my opinion...

All .016s ... the A string suffers due to a decrease in tension...

All .022s ... the E string suffers due to the increase in stiffness.

The "Half-Montee" approach .... a .017 E and a .018 C ... keeps the two most important melody strings almost indistinguishable from each other (I use .016 and a .017 on the Sierra).

If it wasn't for you and Carl bringing the (3) .016s to my attention a few years back ... I would still be using the "standard gauge" set-up ... I think it has made a difference in my approach and playin' ...

Thank You ...

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 03 September 2003 at 02:56 PM.]

Gerald Ross · From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Everyone has different hands, different picking styles, different bar choices, different preferences for string feel, different tone choices, different musical influences etc.

My theory:
"If it sounds like music, then you're doing it right"

Nobody is the ultimate authority. Top steel players offering guidelines on how they get their individual sound is a wonderful gift to other players. It is up to the individual player to study these guidelines and incorporate them into their own sound.

A pre-war Rickenbacker will not make you sound like Jerry Byrd. A wall of Marshalls and an upside down Stratocaster won't make you sound like Jimi Hendrix. Missing your right thumb will not make you sound like Andy Iona. Being poor and from the South doesn't automatically make you a great Blues player.

Trying to clone a top player's style is a dead end street. You are never going to be them. Yes, you can learn a lot about the instrument and technique by dissecting and duplicating a recording note for note. But you should do this as an learning exercise only. After you learn the tune note for note make it your own. Trust yourself. Everyone has a musical story to tell.

Learn from the pros but find your own way.

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 03 September 2003 at 11:40 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Ray, I'm not poking fun at you at all, sorry if it seemed that way, that was not my intention. I remember reading recently that you were talking about Jerry giving you a ride to a gig, so I figured you must of asked a few questions here and there. I like studying early country steel the most right now and JB and Don Helms are my faves. It just seemed to me that Jerry got everyone's attention early on, playing on country recordings and his rep for touch and tone is one of the things that caught everyone's ear, that's what I meant when talking about his Honky Tonk recordings, (Red Foley, Mercury recordings etc.). Since my JB instructional course doesn't talk about the same or close to the same string gauges on the first 3 strings, this is a big thing to understand considering what effect this might have had on JB getting his primo steel sound back in the day. The fact that this is kind of a secret makes it twice as cool to know. I figured since JB invented C6 tuning, that's what he was running with out of the starting gate when he started recording.

By the way, JB does know who you are by name and has mentioned you in his letters. Thanks for all the great insights and if your not an expert, than no one is.

Rick and Ray, I hear what you are saying about string gauge relationships to pitch etc. and something well worth investigating. As always, thanks a ton bros.

George Rout · From: St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

One of you guys mentioned about new strings sounding better, I guess that's obvious when you're comparing to the equal strings you're replacing. But I know for a fact that a friend of mine, Bill Fay, in Annapolis Royal, Nova Scotia still has the same strings on his old 6 string Ricky as he had when we were playing back in 1958. And, I heard it not too long ago, and I wouldn't turn my nose up at the sound. I'm not suggesting this is a good thing, but I was totally surprised at the performance. I think they were old Black Diamonds.

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