Just what is a "tic tac" bass anyway?

KEVIN OWENS · From: OLD HICKORY TN USA

Well, I just got off the phone with Harold Bradley. He says -- Tic tac has to be played on a 6-string bass. If it's on a regular 6-string guitar or 4-string bass, it's not tic tac.

Kevin

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Kevin,

I would be the last one to ever debate and/or argue with Harold Bradley.

So I will just have to say that the sound our guitar player was doing which everyone in the band called "tic-tac" guitar back in the 50's, was something OTHER than "tic-tac" guitar.

And while I would not ever argue with Harold, I will tell you that the leader of that band and the guitar player would eat his lunch.

carl

KEVIN OWENS · From: OLD HICKORY TN USA

B. Cole
The sounds on the Hank Williams records are a guitar playing on the bass strings as were the early Ray Price recordings. Sammy Pruitt played with both of these artist. The 6-string electric bass was first used on a Ray Price session on Jan. 29, 1959 (Heartaches by the Numbers)with Harold playing it. He didn't invent it, he just played it.

Carl
I can only imagine what your response would be if someone belittled Buddy Emmons like you just tried to do to Harold. A completely uncalled for remark. We were discussing tic-tac, not your opion of Harold as a guitar player.

I have presented facts (songs, players, equipment, dates etc.......). Play tic tac on a tuba, I don't care. I know what it is and what it isn't.

Have a nice day

[This message was edited by KEVIN OWENS on 07 May 2001 at 02:27 PM.]

[This message was edited by KEVIN OWENS on 07 May 2001 at 03:05 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Yes Kevin,you are totaly correct in ALL your statments on Tic-Tac bass.Your knowledge at your age is astounding.I first came to Nashville as a studio player in the 60's and this was the hey-day of "THE NASHVILLE SOUND"(which is all gone now)and I worked with all the famous tic-tac players of this era in country music.The most famous players were Leon Rhodes,Billy Sanford,Pete Wade,Jimmy Capps,Spyder Wilson,and a few others.
The art of playing this style is to put the tic-tac note exactly on top of the std. bass note,same note at the same time!(sometimes a octive higher though). Danelectro seems to do a great job at this, Fender did not!
Kevin, you need more respect on this forum,Your knowledge on steel history is second to none , but be forwarned,IF I EVER CATCH YOU GIVING A WRONG ANSWER,I'll crucify you! The history guy,Bobbe Seymour!
The unofficial website of Buddy Charlton.
Not to be confused with the Offical website of Buddie Evanns.
(Carl, get a life,there are other steel players out there today!)

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Just thought I'd add,almost all the sessions I produced for BMG,GOLDSTAR,DECCA and VICTOR Co. of JAPAN,I used Tic-Tac on,and only a small part of which were "country". You want a rhy. section to be big and sound snappy,ya gotta have it! Amen!
Bobbe Seymour

Pete Mitchell · From: Buda, Texas, USA

Hey, Fellas,

In which year did Hank Williams pass away? Now let's go way back with Hank, I think what Kevin may be trying to say was, was there indeed a six string bass back then in Hank's heyday? I don't believe so. Which is why Sammy Pruitt, who at that time could surely have afforded to have one, didn't have a six string bass because they simply didn't exist. Sammy played and cultivated a nice percussive, Luther Perkins-ish sound on a jumbo archtop guitar. There wasn't a whole lot of lead guitar on most of Hank's recordings (with a few exceptions). I believe that the six string bass evolved from the general idea of what Sammy Pruitt was doing.

P.S. For posterity, along about 1959-1960, Rick Danko with Ronnie Hawkins and the Hawks had a Fender VI, the first one I'd seen, but by no means the first one I'd heard. Pete

KEVIN OWENS · From: OLD HICKORY TN USA

Pete
I didn't mean to imply that there was a 6-string bass in Hank's time. The Danelectro book says the 6-string bass was introducted in 1956. There is a copy of an ad from 1958 and the list price was $109.95 or $11 down/$9 per. month through Sears. I think your on the right track with the Sammy Pruitt / jumbo archtop guitar as the forerunner of the tic tac bass sound. Do you remember the song "Honky Tonk Hardwood Floor" by Johnny Horton? Great 6-string bass solo by Grady Martin, released in Jan. 1958.
In the Danelectro book, Marshall Cranshaw states that the into to "La Bamba" by Ritchie Valens is a Fender strat and a Danelectro 6-string bass. (just a little interesting trivia)

Kevin

Pete Mitchell · From: Buda, Texas, USA

Kevin,

Right on! Yeah, I was in fact agreeing with you that tic tac existed before the six string Danelectro that you saw advertised in 1956. I have to agree with Bobbe, you're on the right track.

Pete

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Kevin,

I was in NO way belittling Harold's playing in any way. You totally missunderstood me. I was talking about the band leader and the guitar player eating his lunch about them using a Tic-tac guitar player in lieu of a bass. Because the band leader HIRED the guitar player to do it on a guitar. I stand on the fact that in the 50's, a number of Guitar players in bands called what they were doing tic-tac guitar.

Now the fact that others call a style using a Bass tic-tac bass does NOT negate the fact that any number of guitar players called what they were doing tic-tac guitar.

Again it may be that we are all talking about 2 different things. I do not know. But the sound I am referring to was done on a guitar. NOT a bass.

(Bobby, I have a life thank you. And it has indeed been one of the most blessed a man could ever have! In this day and time it is rare indeed for a man to have been blessed with the same woman for 50 yrs. I will have had that pleasure come aug 25th! And what that has to do with Buddy Emmons I dont know. But I will also stand on the fact that he will always be the greatest player that has EVER lived, BAR NONE! There are hundreds of other greats yes, But NOT one will ever come even close to being as great as he is. NOT in any one's life time ever! And that includes those yet unborn! IMO)

carl

Ed Miller Jr · From: Coldwater,Mi USA

Gee guys, ask a simple question and stir up a hornets nest!! Seriously though I really appreciate all the perstectives on this really the hard thing now is finding some recordings of it without looking on a napsterish type place.

Ed

KEVIN OWENS · From: OLD HICKORY TN USA

I have based all of my statements on fact where you have based yours on opinion. The original question was "What is tic tac bass anyway?" Even the question states that it was a bass. Also I'm basing my facts on the "Nashville Sound" not a bar band up north.

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Good Lord Carl,Talk about misunderstanding!
What has your wonderful wife got to do with tic-tac bass? Or your band leader? Or a gibson Birdland? Looks like I can't understand either. Read my post again and learn what tic-tac bass does,I'm so proud of your wonderful life,I can only hope your as happy as I am, I belive you are as you've always seemed so. I'm also glad you love Buddy so much even though it sounds a little unhealthy.I also admire his ability very much however I put other loves over that. Sounds like you may be worshipping the wrong God. I'm kidding of course, don't get all riled up, Lets see some of that humor I know you must be hiding some where.
Jeannie says to say hello to you and thanks for the great hospitality you extended while we were in Atlanta-97. Not only is she working 60 hours a week in the hoapital,but she is totaly putting out a new store flter as we speak. This has nothing to do with tic-tac but I needed to say Hi!
Bobbe

Mike Sweeney · From: Nashville,TN,USA

WOW!!!!!!

Mike Sweeney · From: Nashville,TN,USA

Kevin, I thought I was the best at ****ing people off. You are the champ. Mike

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Hey mike! I'm trying harder ,(in a humorus way).

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I'm listening to an original version of Ray Price's "Crazy Arms" and hear the "tic tac bass". Never really paid any attention to it until this thread came up.

Learn something everyday on here

Now that I have that straight in my Pennsylvania Dutch hard head, what is the guitar muted bass notes called that was on the Hank Williams sessions and many others? It may have been stated what it's really called but with all the posts, I've lost track.

(I agree with Carl, Emmons is numero uno).

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

I sure hope Carl isnt mad at me, I need his help on the up comming convention in Nashville, Bobbe
P.S. Thanks B. for all the nice Kudos

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Carl, Happy anniversery! We all send your wife our condolences.(just kidding again).
I hope Ya'll have another fifty happy years together!
Bobbe

Mylos Sonka · From: Larkspur CA USA

Over on Hillbilly.com some months back, Bob Moore's wife posted a long piece on this subject. Her husband played bass on thousands of sessions in the fifties and sixties and beyond. I have lost the posting, but if memory serves she said that a baritone guitar was used, the notes muted with the palm, and played to duplicate the doghouse bass notes.

As for the earlier use of the technique, if you don't remember hearing it in Hank Williams' sound, shame on you. Sammy Pruitt referred to it-- I think it was in Jerry River's biography of Hank-- as "crack rhythm." That is what I have always called it. As the Drifting Cowboys were Ray Price's band after Hank died, and Ray had been Hank's protege for a short while, it makes sense that you'd hear the same sound on Price's recordings of that period.

It would seem that Bradley refined the simple alternating muted guitar for a precise duplication of the bass lines with an instrument more suited to the sound he was after.

Hope this helps the discussion.

Mylos

Dave Brophy · From: Miami FL

Picture of a Danelctro 6-string bass: http://theband.hiof.no/band_pictures/danelectro_ub2.jpg

Pic of Danko on a Fender VI: http://theband.hiof.no/articles/fender_bass_vi.html

I bet he didn't play that thing too long.They didn't have the bottom of a "regular" Fender bass,and were hard to play.The strings were too close together.
A friend of mine used to have one,and I never knew until now that Fender only made 7-800 of them.

Bob Hempker · From: Goodlettsville, TN.

I would like to hear any guitar player that would "Eat Harold Bradley's Lunch." That's quite a statement. Carl, have you ever really heard Harold play? I'm not talking about commercial recordings, but really "play." I've heard many great guitar players, including Harold. When you get into that league, no one will "Eat your Lunch."

On a more positive note, I developed a program with my profex II to play tic-tac lines on the lower strings on my C6 neck. It works great. The only problem is: Most Country type tunes that a tic-tac is used on has steel and/or fiddle(s) playing lead lines. It's hard to drop out of the tic-tac line and start playing steel without something sounding like it's "missing."

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John Floyd · From: R.I.P.

I agree with you Bob, If anybody could eat Harolds Lunch, it would have had to pass thru his body first.

I used to have a couple of Harold Bradley albums that would make most guitar players want to quit the business.
One of the original Superpickers!
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John

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 16 May 2001 at 04:26 PM.]

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

I had heard that tic-tac bass was used to help the stand up bass be heard better on the AM radio. Harold was an innovator, so anything that comes after him doesn't count....

Rich Paton · From: Santa Maria, CA.,

Hi folks! I don't think the tic-tac bass is/was a Nashville-only thing.
I have a cut of a Roy Clark tune, named "Dented Fender", with L.A. studio guitarist Howard Roberts on tic-tac bass. While many tic-tac parts on a recording are subtle yet add much to a tune, this Clark tune's T-T bass part is rather prominent in the mix, and sets a cool, funky groove in the cut.
I'm sure it was was an L.A. production, most likely on Capitol.
I'm also certain that Carol Kaye ( L.A. studio bassist extroidinare (sp?) played hundreds if not thousands of T-T bass overdubs to the bass lines on 60's top-forty hits, too.
BTW, while on the subject of the six-string bass, there's a wild recording of Billy Butler (guitarist on Bill Doggett's cut of "Honky-Tonk"), where Butler plays bebop jazz guitar leads on a Fender Bass VI model. The cut is Wes Montgomery's "The Thumb", and has to be heard to be believed.
A wonderful thread, and very informative!

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