Bogged down

Carter York · From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

Howdy folks,

Anyone else ever feel like you're learning the steel guitar on 'multiple tracks' and none of them are related? Right now I feel like I am learning songs, learning to transcribe, and learning theory and those notions are all seemingly oblivious to the others. Learning songs is teaching me movement and (some) technique, transcribing is teaching me the fretboard, but not economy of movement or 'advantageous' positions, and learning theory seems like a head game right now. I know it should all be making sense together, but right now my brain feels like mush. But then I go listen to some old Jimmy Day or Jerry Byrd, get the shivers and think, that's the ticket, keep going...but lately it's seemed so disconnected........how do (or did) some of y'all make sense of it early on in the process? Thanks, Carter

Roy Ayres · From: Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Carter:

Just keep on keeping on. One fine day the "a-ha moment" will arrive. It will all fall into place and you will say, "That makes a lot of sense. Why didn't I see that before."

Most of us have been there.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Roy gave you some good advise! It happened to me about 50 years ago. I was struggling and struggling to make sense out of music and the lap steel. I was just about to call it quits and then walla!, all of a sudden there it was! Just like a light bulb coming on. You'll never regret sticking with it! Nobody said it would be easy.
Erv

[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 13 August 2003 at 11:00 AM.]

Carter York · From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

Hey Roy and Erv,

Thanks for the replies, sometimes it's hard to believe a light will go off when it's so dark in there.....it seemed like just when things were starting to make some sense and boil down, it got even murkier in there.

As for the being easy part, I hear ya, it's just that those great players make it *sound* so easy!

Thanks again for your insight,
Carter

seldomfed · From: Colorado

So guys,
what was different after the light came on??

what did you know, that you didn't know prior to the 'ahha' moment?

chris

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Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"There is no spoon"
www.book-em-danno.com

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Don't worry Carter....when you come over after your trip......I'll show you a way to look at the guitar that will OPEN the whole neck to ya pal....and you'll never been bogged down again...
Ricky

nick allen · From: France

Ummmm... er... Ricky?
Any chance of a little more details (or even just a clue

) for us poor souls who are an AWFUL long way from Austin?
Nick

David Mullis · From: Rock Hill, SC

Yeah, what Nick said

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

When you are learning anything, you have to remember the old KISS (keep it simple, stupid) theory. Don't get in way over your head. Most of us (myself included) will never be able to play and sound like those pickers you hear on records. If your ultimate goal is to sound like them, it's no wonder you're frustrated! You just have to do the best you can, personally. You can always improve with practice and study but most of us will never be outstanding players. The good Lord has only blessed us with just so much talent. Just make the best use of it. There are soooo many different things to learn when playing the steel guitar and learning music. When these all start coming together and making sense--that is when the light bulb comes on!!!

Just keep pickin'.
Erv

[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 14 August 2003 at 07:11 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Any one who's any good did alot of woodsheding to get there, even the guy's with perfect pitch. When you learn the heck out of one instrument, all instruments make more sense. Notes is notes, different instruments have little trick bags here and there as far as how to make those notes come out, but theory is the same.

Carter, it sounds like your doing what you need to do to get it together, the harder you work at it the better it's gonna sound. There have been alot of good players who let their ears and the bandstand teach them what they needed to learn to get good, that's one way. This is the information age so why not use all this information to your benefit? Theory has made me a much better player and student than if I hadn't had any of it. Learn as many cool songs that turns you on as ya can and try and see the theory behind the notes, that teaches approaches that can be used all over the place. Things are so much better now as far as having the information about songs and theory there for you to use. There was a time when if you didn't know the right people, you weren't gonna get too far. Carter, I would get good on your chords and the major and minor blues scales and start jamming on cover songs with people, that's gonna get you cruising in the right direction. I find that when I play a gig and make money, I can study much better afterwards. Sides, your living around all those great steel players who can sure show you a few things, you lucky dog!

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 14 August 2003 at 07:32 AM.]

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Nick and David and others.
WEll I can explain my approach to looking at the steel guitar; but application is the key and something that you can apply or of course it's faster if I can show you how to apply; cause just explaining is too long and drawn out without application.
Very Basically, I look at the steel guitar in numbers, as I know what the notes are, but knowing the number value they are and the interval between strings is the most important in my approach.
Since chords are basically named with numbers ie. C(6th...or E(9...or A(minor7...and so on.
It's those numbers that are important to know as you can make up or part of any chord without even moving bar positions if you know the numbers that make up that chord or scale.
This is basic music theory of course....but knowing the notes and most importantly, knowing the number values of every note on your open tuning.
Take a C6th 8-string tuning.
low to high....A C E G A C E G
C being your root or 1 of the C chord.
A is the 6th E is the 3rd and G is the 5th tones that make up the C6th chord.
In playing a basic major scale.."doe ray me fa so la ti doe.....that is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
in our C6th tuning...we have a C(1) and our next string up is an E(3rd) so we are missing the 2...and I know that its 2 whole tones between 1 and 3....so we need a whole tone to make a 2 note...so you can either move up a whole step on the C(1 note or back a whole step on the E(3rd note, to get that 2 note......and on from there.
This is the basic approach and studying the number value they are and how many tones are between your strings...you will excel your seeing the scale(s) all over the neck....
Of course it goes way on from there and the quicker learning process is it's application of this approach.
Also...when wanting to play along with a song and/or learn a song....I believe it is important to sit and listen to the song...and hear the chord progression and try naming the chord progression in your head as you listen(ie..."that's the 1; that's the 4 chord; that's a 6minor...etc..) and seeing where those chords are on the neck while you listen. Than sit down and go along with the song and see if your right.
So hearing and seeing; without any physical application is soooooo important to seeing and hearing the neck of the steel.
As pretty soon ...you will listen to a song...and hear a note and you can look at your guitar and see where that exact note is played and even hear what it sounds like in your head....and then when you go to play it...your right...becasue you heard the note before you actually made that tone physically....
These are just some of my very basic approaches to hearing this instrument and it's application to music.....and of course I can go on and on....but I would most likely shut down the whole server b0b worked so hard to build...ah..ha...
Good luck...and listening and seeing and knowing the numbers....In your head.....is the key to seeing this bad boy and all the music that can come outta it.
Ricky

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Here is somethin' to go along with Ricky's post ...

Number System/Charts

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Yes Yes Yes......Rick; that's It man...Thanks for writing all that out in that earlier post....That is exactly how I see the neck.
And anyone can make a chart like that for the tuning they use.....and it will become memory and automatic after a while.
Ricky

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

FWIW

Play something, that you know and like, often. Get into it. Have fun, and enjoy. Can't lose that thrill, that sound.

Ron

nick allen · From: France

Thanks Ricky

Golf maestro...
Pedal steel star...
Non-pedal steel designer...
SGF Moderator...
Educator...
What do you do in your spare time?

(It's OK - you don't have to tell us

)
Nick

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Ricky's right on the money about the number system opening up the whole world- and Scott said a mouthful- none of it sinks in too well unless/until you're actually playing music with other folks. I was lucky enough to join a band the same day I got my first steel, and it was woodshed or die! I was often practicing 8-9 hours a day then, and it seemed I wasn't making much progress for the time invested, I'd get to a gig and remember so little of what I'd been working on. Finally I hit on the concept of practicing/studying just a small element of the whole, like harmony scale walk ups, or I-IV chord moves of various kinds. Then I would take those ideas to my next gig or practice and try to fit 'em into every possible situation. Things started making more sense, and I started noticing faster progress. I still add new material the same way today- when working on a new scale, lick, chordal phrase, whatever, I first look at it functionally (number-wise, see posts above) to see how it functions in relation to a key center, chordal movement, etc. Then I work on fitting it into every conceivable musical cranny, and try to figure it out in different octaves, string groupings, with and without pedals, etc. If there's no band handy you can do a whole lot of this kind of thing with some of the great practice tracks available, band in a box, or a metronome. At least all that work is fun!

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C'mon by and visit!- www.markvanallen.com
My Bands: Sugarland Kate and the Retreads Kecia Garland Band Shane Bridges Band Dell Conner Blues Band

Carter York · From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

These are all great ideas, and I have certainly noticed that when I play with friends I tend to shape things up a bit quicker, when I know there are other ears that now hear what I'm doing. Starting and keeping it small seem to help comprehension as well, my theory far exceeds my playing, so it's easy to get ahead of myself.

On the drive home from work the other day, I was thinking about the number system that Ricky describes, and also the quick look I took at some of Rick A's charts, and it was like a stereogram, I saw just enough of 'it' to realize how clear it is right there in front of me, then, 'poof', it was gone, but I think I have an idea of where this is headed.

Thanks again to all who share ideas and tips and whatnot, most of the time you'll probably have no idea how much something you type might help some one out.
Carter

Jan Dunn · From: Union, NJ USA

These number charts sure give one a different perspective on a c6 neck--for the better I might add. However, I'm having trouble understanding the 2 note slant charts. can someone explain it to me (assume I'm musically retarded)? An e-mail if you don't want to bore the others is fine. Much appreciation.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Strings 5-2



3 - - 1     "Homebase" F6 Chord  Fret 5    


4


      2


5


      3


6 - - 4                          Fret 10








7 - - 5                          Fret 12


1


      6


2


      7


3 - - 1     "Homebase" F6 Chord  Fret 17

Lets take an octave run from the F6 position at Fret 5 to the F6 position at Fret 17 using strings 5-2 (open E - C strings)

The 3---1 means that you are at a straight bar position at Fret 5. Picking the 5th string and the 2nd string gives you an A note (3) and a F note (1) ....

The next position would be a forward slant (4--2). Fret 6 picking the 5th string and Fret 7 picking the 2nd string. This sounds the Bb note (4) and the G note (2).

The next position would be a forward slant (5--3). Fret 8 picking the 5th string and at Fret 9 picking the 2nd string. This sounds the C note (5) and the A note (3).

The 6---4 means that you are at a straight bar position at Fret 10. Picking the 5th string and the 2nd string gives you a D note (6) and a Bb note (4) ....

The 7---5 means that you are at a straight bar position at Fret 12. Picking the 5th string and the 2nd string gives you an E note (7) and a C note (5) ....

The next position would be a forward slant (1--6). Fret 13 picking the 5th string and at Fret 14 picking the 2nd string. This sounds the F note (1) and the D note (6).

The next position would be a forward slant (2--7). Fret 15 picking the 5th string and at Fret 16 picking the 2nd string. This sounds the G note (2) and the E note (7).

Now we complete the passage with the 3---1 a straight bar position at Fret 17 picking the 5th string and the 2nd string giving us an A note (3) and a F note (1) ....

Hope that explains my crazy charts

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 19 August 2003 at 01:44 PM.]

Carter York · From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

Did anyone just notice an extremely bright light coming from the general Austin area?

Thanks for the explanation, Rick, this is getting gooder and gooder.

CY

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

PS: Here is some more "Bathroom Readin' " ...

Tunin' and Slantin'

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I did the chord degrees for my C6 for open and almost all my pedals and combinations, to see where all the roots and 5ths and 3rds and 7ths etc, sat with any given combination.
And then periodically play over the charts looking for different ways to get between groupings.
The next thing is to do that for alternate chords(C6 + A7 for example) for the realtive minors as another example.
Very usefull from 6 strings on up.
After awhile you start seeing them on the neck with out refering to the chart.

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