Improvisation vs. Playing Parts

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Last night at rehearsal, someone mentioned that a fan had categorized us as "folk jazz" because we improvise a lot. My response was "I'm only improvising because I don't know my part yet!"

Good improvisation is instant composition. We value it because we value the knowledge involved in composing good melodies. Many of us, though, aren't really very good at it. The times when I've pulled off a really good improvised solo are rare. More often, I work on a song over time, developing my parts and honing them towards the ultimate goal of having a part that really works.

I really like knowing exactly what part to play, so that I don't have to improvise in front of an audience. I don't want to be out on a limb.

Some people think that they'll get stale if they play the same part every time. The answer to that, I think, is new songs. Every new part has its challenges - learning the positions, getting the attack and timing right, etc. That's how I look at it, anyway.

What are your thoughts on improvising vs. playing a set part?

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

Hi Bobby,

I have a lot more experience playing regular 6-string than psg, but I think one could apply the issue you've raised to almost any instrument.

I think you bring up a really good point about learning new songs. I might be wrong, but what I hear you saying is that it's important to learn the melody of each song you play, and to try to incorporate at least the basic melody into solos (at least some of the time).

As you become more and more familiar with a particular melody, you can then start branching out and "spicing up" the melody using your musical knowledge as well as experience of playing "licks" and so-forth. I think the incorporation of at least the basic melody this way will tend to make each solo more unique, and thus more interesting, because usually, every melody has some type of unique phrasing or pattern of unique notes in it.

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

I'm not as familiar on steel as I am on standard guitar, so my improvising tends to happen mostly when I'm not playing steel...but I make attempts on steel, and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I'm getting there.

My band starts off every rehearsal with a total improvisation. Someone just starts playing something and we all join in. Sometimes it's magical and sometimes it's garbage, but it's always a whole bunch of fun. As far as stage improvs go, we tend to let songs "breathe" a little. Someone may try something a little different and see if the rest of us jump onboard. Sometimes it becomes part of how we play the song. We do this fairly cautiously.

I think it's good to build a solid foundation for the song and then see where it leads you in performances from night to night. Occasionally, something really fantastic happens and nobody can really tell who is driving the direction, everyone is just on the same page. Magical, and the best part of being a musican, IMO.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

There's very few songs that I do note for note the same as the record. Improvising, if that's what you want to call it, has been a way of life for me. Many songs I've copped the identifying lick(s) but there's a lot more that are played "Stoner style".

I've worked in bands where arrangements were practiced and parts learned but that has been few and far between.

However, I do subscribe to the "play the melody" school. And I too have to think about the words to the song on a lot of songs when I'm playing the melody break - but if someone asked me what the words to a song were I couldn't tell them...

Jeff A. Smith · From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A.

Interesting that B0b is more comfortable having his parts pretty well set. As far as lead breaks, I'm just the opposite. (Speaking about standard guitar, here). I like having total freedom during a lead. The exception would be when an original recording has some element that is particularly thematic, then I feel like I have to have at least some of that.

As far as the rest of the song, I might have two basic approaches, depending on the nature of the song. The first is kind of a loose policy toward fills, chord types, and whatnot. I'll prepare for that (if I need to) by practicing certain types of ideas, but nothing cut and dried. The second approach I use for songs that I perceive as needing a pretty specific structure and dynamic development. I can pretty much plan every fill and chord for a song like that. (I may still go totally off the cuff for the lead, though).

I like to plan some leads, if for no other reason than I think it's good practice. But there is definently more anxiety about getting through those then being free to do whatever each unique moment suggests.

The way other band members approach this question is a big influence also.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 16 March 2001 at 01:14 PM.]

Moon in Alaska · From: Kasilof, Alaska * R.I.P.

I have always been real conservative playing music and believe the audience preference is pretty simple. I like to stick strickly to the melody and just fool around with harmonies, substitute chords and etc. I learned years ago that repetition is a big part of music and the need to change every verse is not necessary. I always try to ask myself, are we playing for the audience or for the musicians ?? Have I ever "FAKED IT ?" You durn right, when I had too !!!

------------------
<< Moon Mullin in Alaska >>
==Carter S-10==
<< Old Fender-400 >>
== Evans FET 500 Custom LV ==
Click HERE for Moon's Home Page

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

When I play with my old band, we do most everything spontaneously. We may do a song we haven't done in years, but we have to do it well! Some songs, like Working Man Blues" may go on for 10 or 12 minutes, giving everyone a chance to show off. While we can remember the arrangements on special songs (like Look At Us), most of our stuff has no set "arrangements".

If we were a backup band for a "big star", our material would be very limited, and it would be very easy (but boring) to play the same thing note-for-note. Usually though, we'll select from literally hundreds of songs that we all may know collectively, so "winging it" is rule of the day.

richard burton · From: Britain

I play lead guitar and pedal steel, and I always play off the cuff. I find it adds more excitement to performing, not knowing what I am going to do next. The only problem with this is that if I play something really melodic and nice I can't remember it next time I play.

Kenny Forbess · From: peckerwood point, w. tn.

If the song has a "signature" lick/intro/turn,
I make sure to do that,then I kinda go out in my own zone with fills and such.

Janice Brooks · From: Pleasant Gap Pa

From one conversation I remember last week in Dallas. Herb Steiner and Dayna wills were talking about some song she has performed with him. What she remembered about his treatment was that he used the Murphy riff from a Cooly song called "The Trouble With Me" that had the same chord progresson as a break.

------------------
Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I enjoy being an improviser much more than being a parts player. It depends on the musicians and the music. If the other players have big ears we can go all sorts of places. If they are limited to parts then I try to stay within context.

Often steel players just play the riffs they know over whatever the music is . I do not concider that to be improvising.
Playing like that is just like being a parts player that is too lazy to learn
a new part !

Improvising is when you listen and react spontaniosly to the music around you.

Bob

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Pete Drake, who probably did more sessions than any other steeler in his era, made a living playing his stock set of licks on sessions. And, I still hear a lot of his licks on recordings today.

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

*

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 01 May 2002 at 05:04 PM.]

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 17 Mar 2001 7:07 pm

For me its always depended on the band. Sometimes I have to attempt to copy the session player note for note. Other bands allow me to improv. Recently, I've been working with a guitar player who is a UNT graduate. About 8 yrs of music school. He wants everyone in the band to play rehearsed parts, so HE can do all the improv. He feels free to be critical of all the other players, but the other night he missed a "signature" guitar lick on "WWW.Memory" so I just asked him about that! Wow did it ever torque his jaws!! The only rule I really agreed with in all my years of music school was "If it sounds right, it is right." Thanks b0b.

Kenny Forbess · From: peckerwood point, w. tn.

Amen,And,Amen,BILL !!!

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

It's a situational thing, and the well-rounded musician should be expected to, and be able to, do both set arrangements and improvisation.

Whereas brilliant improvisation may impress other musicians out there, the general audience most easily recognizes and is impressed by cohesiveness coming from the bandstand, and that requires the musicians be at least on the same page as to who is going to be playing what, and where it's going to be played. The larger the band, the more set arrangements are needed and the closer each musician must listen to the entirety of the sound coming off the stage.

In a four-piece "bar band," with likely only one or two lead instruments, this attention to detail is not so critical, since everyone can be easily heard and there's lots of freedom. But when the band has two lead guitarists, twin fiddlers, piano, sax, steel, etc., arrangements are almost mandatory, or else it starts coming off like a musical clusterf**k. Both band styles can be fun to play within, but you have to decide to get your joy from precision and tightness, or from freedom of expression.

One group I play in is a large band, and some of the musicians are inexperienced in playing set Western Swing arrangements. But when everyone's memory is working and everyone is listening to each other, the sound can be tight and very impressive to the audience. However, when other instrumentalists, unfamiliar with the arrangements, are allowed to "sit in," (over my objections, frankly), it seems that no one is really sure where to play, and so the aforementioned "clusterf..k" occurs. I usually wind up getting p.o'd and take my picks off, and let the rest of them screw up the song by themselves.

Herb's 2nd Rule of Sitting In states: The more musicians onstage, the less each individual musician must play.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 18 March 2001 at 08:09 AM.]

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Herb, when to play or not play is Rule #1 that any musician should learn. Don't matter if he's the only lead instrument or in a more structured and bigger band. Seems some never learn that.

Rule #2 is the singer is the "star" not the backup musicians. The backup musicians are there to make the "star" sound good (unless it's an instrumental). Something else a lot of musicians can't seem to grasp. Good basic licks - not something to impress other musicians.

If those two rules are followed you can make it whether structured or improvised.

However, I have problems with those that want to sit in and then don't want to go along with how the band plays. When I sit in with a band I always lay back and don't really push it unless I'm told/signaled to.

Sage · From: Boulder, Colorado

My first teacher taught me to think of silence as something you play. It becomes intentional then. As to arrangements, I think that planning when NOT to play is an important and effective thing. Silence can sweeten a song very much, and make your playing sound fresh. And yes, Jack learning how to fill so as not to play over the singer, or compete with their register is so important, but challenging.

Bob Hayes · From: Church Hill,Tenn,USA

I TRY to play the song..or the steel part as close as possible..but like some of the other post..most of the time it is FAKING IT. I've learned so many songs over the years..It's hard to remember each and every "lick" and sometimes ,with the group I'm with now..They start playing..and I have to figure out what it is and what key. So close is good enough

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

ooooo. . . . Jim's gettin' ready to rumble.

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 19 Mar 2001 8:00 pm

You are of course referring to the Dreaded "12 Bar" Blues players, right? You gotta watch out for those 1,4,5 kinda guys. Last time I got threatened in a night club was by a whole group of 1,4,5 amateurs. They told me there was no such thing as substitution chords, and that the producers were the actual brains behind all recordings. I had no idea!!!! GEEZ!!!

Sage · From: Boulder, Colorado

I'm going to go listen to all of my favorite country songs now with the 2/6/3 progression. Now where did I put that Captain Beefheart?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Regarding parts, I want to point out that I like to write my own. In a song with vocals, I rarely play the melody, and it's a pain to learn parts off of a record unless I really like the record. When I'm learning a new song I improvise quite a bit, looking for parts that fit. My part evolves from the improvisations.

Of course it's fun to improvise with a group of good players, as Bob Hoffnar pointed out. But when I'm recording or playing in front of a listening audience, I'd rather know my part so that I can concentrate on nuances of performance - things like tone, dynamics and precision. I'm not a good enough composer to improvise a good part under the gun.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Forum Index > Music	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic