Standard in TAB

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

"It was created by Roy Thomson. I like it because it provides more information than tab in less space, and because non-steel players can read it too. (Bobby Lee)"

As this forum seems to be getting more standard in conversation between steelers, what is holding us back to get AGREEMENT about ONE standard in TAB, maybe THIS one we are all raving about?
Come on, get the bull by the horns
Let's produce something as a result of this beautiful forum!!!!!!!!!!!!! JJ

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STEELDAYS 2000
my web-site
my band COD

Steve Feldman · From: Central MA USA

I like this idea, although I'm not sure that Preludio No. 7 in D maj is going to be the best ticket for me to try it out on....

I really feel the need for some sort of unification - or if not unification - some sort of protocol that would help convey the nuances of steel guitar. Think about how many ways you've seen pedal squeezes illustrated. A lot of times, if you don't know what the tune is supposed to sound like, you'd have a hard time telling a grace note from something with more time attached to it.

Anyway - so in this tab, the lines are still strings like in 'standard' tab, right? and the lower course is the fret/pedal notation, right? If this is the case, I don't follow why string 8, for example, in the first staff has an 8 shown toward the left, and a 10 shown toward the right.

What am I missing, Johan?
I don't know that I understand it right now, but I like the approach.
Steve

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

Hi Steve,
I think there is a little missunderstanding.
The lines are the staffs in the traditional-music notation.
The first note in the first bar is a quarter note , on the third count of the bar, representing the note A on the 8th string on fret 5
On the last count of the 5th bar, the same quarternote A is played on the 10th string, on fret 10, together with an F#, played on string 6, you understand?
In this way of notation you learn to use the standard notation, you even can put grace notes to it and you can give dynamic information.

Guys and girls, till now this comes the closest to standard music-notation as you can get, looks a bit like the notation for classical guitar. If we want to be taken serious in the traditional music world, IMHO, we should go as far as we can with the same notation, please, consider this. The farther you get with this way of writing and reading, the less you will need all other kinds of notes next to standard music notation. It gives a lot of openings for us to take a chance with piano, harp and classical guitar parts.....
I'm very curous about the opinion from people like Buddy, Paul,Joe Wright, Mike Perlowin and others that know the in's and outs of music notation. Can we get into a new area with this???????????????
My 5 cnts, JJ

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STEELDAYS 2000
my web-site
my band COD

[This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 08 May 2000 at 03:20 PM.]

Jerry Gleason · From: Eugene, Oregon, USA

This system makes a lot of sense to me. Until now, tablature and standard notation have been divergent systems, having nothing to do with each other. In this system, the time you spend learning the "tab" also teaches you to get comfortable with standard notation.

The only problem I see with this system, and it's a minor problem, is that there would be no way to post or e-mail this layout as ASCII characters the way we do with conventional tab. I've tried to make notation work as .pdf files, but it didn't work from BAIB. I'll try some other notation software. I wonder if I could modify my notation software to accomodate the additional numbers....?

This is a good idea that wouldn't be hard for the player to learn even if they've never read music before. The person writing the tab would, of course, have to know standard notation.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I'm not sure I like it. I read music very little and the notation seems to get in my way. First you have to look next to the notes to see what strings are being picked, then lokk under the staff to see what fret and pedals are being used. It just seems like it would slow down the learning pace. I do like the idea of the notes so you can see the timing involved.

In the immortal words of the Ole Roadhog, " I don't know, I don't know"

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Carter D10 8p/10k
Richard Sinkler BS, www.sinkler.com

John O Keeffe · From: Co Waterford Ireland

Well I can't read music atall and I'm not ashamed to say it.You could say I am totally an "ear" player.I can understand the regular tab that most people know but I'm afraid I couldn't make much sense out of this.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

If you know how to read music, this is really the way to go. Standard musical notation has dealt with the nuances of performing for centuries.

Understand that Roy's chart above is an example of "complete hinting", geared towards the beginner. You don't really need to put the fret number under ever note - you just need it when you move the bar.

If you know the notes on your guitar, you only really need the string number and pedal letter when they are ambiguous. An experienced player knows that there's only one high A at the 10th fret, but there are two C#'s. So you don't really need to hint the high A, but for the C# you need to specify the 2nd or 4th string (or the E lever).

I often mark up sheet music in pencil this way, to remind myself where to play the notes. No sense in figuring it out new every time you sit down with it.

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Bobby Lee quasar@b0b.com gigs CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra S-8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6)

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

I would pay attention to what Bobby Lee is saying. I think it is a good way to go. And as he mentioned, you can eliminate the redundant numbering on every note. Read the tab and look at the notes. It looks like a good way for a beginner to learn to read notes. And that, can be very important..al

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

The most useful thing I find about traditional musical notation is in establising correct tempo/timing. With just a little research into time signatures, time values of notes, rests, etc. you can play most anything at least close to correctly using a metronome.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I would lean more to the style that Joe posted above. You would have the best of both worlds. The arrows for pedal changes also seem like a good idea. I always take a pencil and write under the tab which of MY pedals makes the changes required.

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Carter D10 8p/10k
Richard Sinkler BS, www.sinkler.com

P Gleespen · From: Toledo, OH USA

Yes, Joe's posted tab looks like it would be best. One good thing about the Roy Thompson style though, is that it can be "added" to standard notation on the fly.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Another big advantage of standard musical notation is its compactness. When you have tab plus the staff, you can only fit 3 lines of music on a sheet of paper. With standard notation, 8 lines of music per sheet is not unusual. I hate stopping to turn the page.

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Bobby Lee quasar@b0b.com gigs CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra S-8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6)

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

I canimagine that it's very hard to make the step from the steelguitar-tab to the standard music notation, if you aren't educated in this and/or not used to read music, so I try to say: For people that start with steel now, it would be the best way to learn playing steel and reading music, and getting independable from typical TAB (That's for B4N*J*s!!!!

) JJ

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STEELDAYS 2000
my web-site
my band COD

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

b0b, point well taken. I would rather have easier (read: less cluttered) tab and have to turn pages more often. I guess this shows why there never has been a standard.

You sure that's not a picture of Charlie Daniels in your post?

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Carter D10 8p/10k
Richard Sinkler BS, www.sinkler.com

Steve Feldman · From: Central MA USA

I like the idea of having software capable of producing both standard music notation. But everything out there that I've seen will not do 10-line tab, or it will do 10-line tab, but with tons of limitations. There are several shareware tab programs on the Harmony Central software page, but nothing that is both sophisticated AND will do more than 7-line tab. Then you can go to Allegro (I think that's it...), which is ~$80.00 for a really nice standard notation software package, but it won't do tab (or maybe it just won't do 10-line tab - I do't remember).

I get a lot of use in working things out on tab, but I'd like to be able to format and notate things better. If anyone has any more ideas on this subject, I'd love to hear 'em.

BTW JOHAN: Any idea what Roy Thompson did that on (above)?

Steve

[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 09 May 2000 at 11:26 AM.]

Maurie Junod · From: Oak Forest, Illinois, USA

Hi Johan,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting
this. I have a number of orders for tabs that
I have been struggling with in order to
present something that I can standardize. You
know what I mean? So when I send something out that I'm
not experimenting with my newest idea and
then being faced with redoing all my previous
work.

The other concern is the sheer volume of pages needed for the two staff method, like
Bobby says, turning all those pages is a real
pain.

Then there is the second chorus improvision.
Everything for that reqires doubling the number of pages. I have made one TAB for "Out
of Nowhere" that has eight pages. This seems
unreasonal to me. I welcome what you have
presented with gratitude. This is a system
that I can start out with and know that it
will serve well for the future.

Thanks again, Maurie

RickRichtmyer · From: Beautiful Adamstown, MD

I'll cast my vote for discarding tab in favor of a more standard musical notation. I'm more of an ear player than a reader (despite having a degree in music), but I think that it's a lot easier to hear things in my head when I look at standard notation. To me that's a big plus.

Some years ago I sat down with a hymnal and worked out several hymns just by reading the music and mentally working out where it should be on the steel.

I'll bet that if anyone went out and got some beginners' books for most any instrument (except piano) and took the time to figure out on steel where the notes lie, they would quickly adapt to playing steel from standard notation.

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Rick Richtmyer
Good News

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

Maybe Mr Thompson can tell us. I presume you can play what you want to get tabbed with MIDI, a MIDIguitar, keyboard, or if you have a MIDI device on your steel with your steel. Then transpose it to a sheetmusicprogram like Notator or Finale, there you will have a lot of tools to edit it this way!
I think when you get experienced in this , it will take les time than tab-writing. JJ

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STEELDAYS 2000
my web-site
my band COD

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Johan,
Uitstekende werk, jongen! (Excellent work, lad!) Steve

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I like to sit down and read music. I'm not real good at it, but if its something that I've hinted I can usually play just by reading it. I can go back to something I hinted a year or two ago and say, "Yeah, I remember that."

I can sit down and read tab too, but I'm often not sure if I got the timing right. That's the biggest problem with a lot of tab - if you haven't heard the song before you can really mess up the timing.

Like Rick, I started reading with hymnals when I was a kid. I was never very good on the organ or the classical guitar, but that's where I learned to read.

I'm not sure I could pick it up if I were to start today, at 50 years old. I can understand why some people are hestant to learn it - it looks intimidating if you don't know what all the symbols mean.

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Bobby Lee quasar@b0b.com gigs CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra S-8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6)

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

By the way, has anyone noticed the minor error in the first measure of the last line of Roy's chart? I think it's missing a tie bar - the first two notes should be a dotted eighth and a sixteenth.

Ingo Mamczak · From: Luimneach , Eire.

Hello JJ

I would think of Roys excellent example as a possible standard for p.s.g. notation as opposed to a standard for p.s.g. tab .
My opinion would be that a standard p.s.g. tab needn't necessarily include notation at all .
I also think tab is perhaps better for learning to play p.s.g. with as it is more of a physical represantation of our actual guitar than the music itself and so helped me to learn my guitar as much as what song I was playing . Even if I started with notation , I would still have to learn the mechanics of the guitar first .

Just a few pence there

Ingo

Dave Horch · From: Frederick, Maryland, USA

My problem with psg tab, like Bobby mentioned, is the lack of rhythmic notation. So my solution is to hand draw it in, when needed, using the usual notation for that. But when faced with tab for something I’ve never heard, the rhythm (note duration) part is mostly a guess. Otherwise, I’m okay with tab, even with that dang B@n&0!!

Best, -Dave

RickRichtmyer · From: Beautiful Adamstown, MD

b0b,

Yeah, I noticed the missing dot on the F#-G in the first full measure too.

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Rick Richtmyer
Good News

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

Dank je wel Steve, laat ze maar raden wat we zeggen

! Groetjes, Johan

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STEELDAYS 2000
my web-site
my band COD

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