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Topic: C6 tritone&4th - tritone&3rd voicing ? |
Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 30 Dec 2003 9:48 am |
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The first interval I know for sure I started to explore from different points of view was a b3 interval.
The b3 interval is pretty forgiving when playing over dom7th chords since at least 8 of the 12 b3-intervals sound appropriate.
But this tread is more about a tritone + 4th on top and tritone + 3rd on top.
tritone 4th
* - - - - - * - - - - *
C - D - E F - G - A - B C - D - E F - G
tritone 3rd
* - - - - - * - - - *
C - D - E F - G - A - B C - D - E F - G
This shows the two voicings which can take on different qualities depending on which root is being played.
The Tritone+4th could be a dom7th w a 13th on top or it could be a 7#9
All that is required is a bass note.
G F B E is a R b7 3 13 voicing
Db F B E is a R 3 b7 #9 voicing
The Bass note for the two chords would be a....... tritone apart
The tritone +3rd could be a dom7b13 or dom9 depending on bass note
G F B Eb is a R b7 3 b13(#5) voicing
Db F B Eb is a R 3 b7 9 voicing
The Bass note for the two chords would be a....... tritone apart
Note:
Some examples require D string on top and a C-C# raise on 3rd string
Levers are indicated as (#'s and (b's
Examples
Tritone+ 4th, notes Bb E A
D-------------7--------------------------
E-----4(6--------------------------------
C-----4---------------9------------------
A-------------7--------------------------
G-----4(5-------------9------------------
E-------------7(6------------------------
C---------------------9(8----------------
A----------------------------------------
F----------------------------------------
C----------------------------------------
Tritone+3rd, notes Bb E Ab
D----------------------------------------
E-----4----------------------------------
C-----4-------7(#-----9(b----------------
A-------------7--------------------------
G-----4(5-------------9------------------
E-------------7(6------------------------
C---------------------9(8----------------
A----------------------------------------
F----------------------------------------
C----------------------------------------
substituting rootless voicing to get
C13 C7b13 F9
D----------------------------------------
E----4(6--4(6--4----4----3---------------
C----4----4----4----4----3---------------
A----------------------------------------
G----4(5--4(5--4(5--4(5--3(5-------------
E----------------------------------------
C----------------------------------------
A----------------------------------------
F----------------------------------------
C----------------------------------------
Small lick that incorporates both voicings
C to F ( I to IV ) or ( V to I )
D------------------------------------------------
E----0---1----2----3~~~~4(6--4----3----3(6~~3----
C----0---1(#--2(#--3(#~~4----4----3(#--3(#~~3----
A------------------------------------------------
G--0-----1----2----3~~~~4(5--4(5--3----3~~~~3(5--
E------------------------------------------------
C------------------------------------------------
A------------------------------------------------
F------------------------------------------------
C------------------------------------------------
With bass notes
C13 C7b13 F9 F7b9 F7
D----7-----------------------------------
E----------------------------------------
C-----------7(#----6(#---6-----6(b-------
A----7------7------6-----6-----6---------
G----------------------------------------
E----7(6----7(6----6(6---6(6---6(6-------
C----------------------------------------
A----------------------------------------
F----7------7------6(5---6(5---6(5-------
C----------------------------------------
worth noting a tritone(frets) above IV I V next to each other
F9 C7 G7 F7 C7 G7
D--------------------------------------------
E--------------------------------------------
C---6(b--7----8(b-----------12----13(b--14---
A---6----7----8-------------12----13----14---
G--------------------------------------------
E---6(6--7(6--8(6-----------12(6--13(6--14(6-
C--------------------------------------------
A--------------------------------------------
F---6(5--7----8(5-----------12----13(5--14---
C--------------------------------------------
Combining chords for staying more or less in the same position
8 bars of some kind of blues/jazz
C13 C7b13 C7 C7b13 F9 F7b9 F7 F7b9
D---7---------------------------------------
E-------------------------------------------
C--------7(#--7----7(#--6(#--6----6(b--6----
A---7----7----7----7----6----6----6----6----
G-------------------------------------------
E---7(6--7(6--7(6--7(6--6(6--6(6--6(6--6(6--
C-------------------------------------------
A-------------------------------------------
F---7----7----7----7----6(5--6(5--6(5--6(5--
C-------------------------------------------
C7 C#dim Dm11 G7/D
D-----------------------5----5----5----5-----
E--------------------------------------------
C---7----7----7----7----5----5----5----5-----
A---7----7----7----7-------------------------
G-----------------------5----5----5(5--5(5---
E---7(6--7(6--7(6--7(6-----------------------
C--------------------------------------------
A-----------------------5----5----5----5-----
F---7----7----7(5--7(5-----------------------
C----------------------------- * se note ----
C7 C6 C7 C6 C7 F7 F9 F7 F9
D-------------7----7-----------------------------
E---7(6--7(6-----7----7--------------------------
C--------------7----7---12---12-------12---------
A---7----7--------------12---12---12----12-------
G-----------------------------------12----12-----
E---7(6--7(6------------12(6-12(6-----------12(6-
C------------------------------------------------
A------------------------------------------------
F---7----7--------------12---12------------------
C------------------------------------------------
C7 C7#5 G9/D G7 C6
D----------------------------------------
E----------------------------------------
C---7----7(#--8(#-----------0~~~~~~~~~~--
A---7----7----8----2-------0~~~~~~~~~~~--
G-------------------------0~~~~~~~~~~~~--
E---7(6--7(6--8(6--2(6---0~~~~~~~~~~~~~--
C-----------------------0~~~~~~~~~~~~~~--
A----------------------------------------
F---7----7----8(5--2---------------------
C----------------------------------------
optional turnaround
C7 C#dim Dm7 G7b9 G7 G9/D
D--------------------------------------------
E----------------------------------------5---
C---7----7----7----7----8(#--8-----8(b---5---
A---7----7----7----7----8----8-----8---------
G----------------------------------------5(5-
E---7(6--7(6--7(6--7(6--8----8(6---8(6-------
C--------------------------------------------
A----------------------------------------5---
F---7----7----7(5--7(5--8(5--8(5---8(5-------
C--------------------------------------------
Almost forgot about the 7#9
G7#9 C13
D-------------------------------------7-------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------
C----------10------10-------------------------------------
A-------------------------------------7-------------------
G----------10------10-------------------------------------
E-------------------------------------7(6-----------------
C----------10(8----10(8-----------------------------------
A--10--10------10-----------------------------7----8----9-
F-----------------------10(8-9(8-7------------------------
C------------------------------------------7(8--8(8---9(8-
Or like this (so one can use P4 for something useful)
D---------------------------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------
C----------10------10-------------------------------------
A-------------------------------------10(4----------------
G----------10------10-----------------10(5----------------
E---------------------------------------------------------
C----------10(8----10(8---------------10------------------
A--10--10------10-----------------------------7----8----9-
F-----------------------10(8-9(8--------------------------
C--------------------------------10(5------7(8--8(8---9(8-
Both examples are easier if one uses both feet
I also hope I have given the correct names above the voicings.
I tried playin thru all examples and they sound correct at least.
Hopefully some of the other SGF members can help me fill in the blanks and
further give hints to how to use/see a tritone+4th and a tritone+3rd.
Have fun
Bengt Erlandsen
ZumSteel S12E9ext
JCH D10 |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 31 Dec 2003 8:05 am
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Bengt,
As you point out, pedal 8 gives you an assortment of dominant chord extensions. For example, at fret 9, besides the F#7#9 and C13 (the tri-tones equivalents you describe), there is also a C7#11 you can get using string 4 (F#) for the #11 note, and an A7b9 inversion with the b9 note on the bottom (it helps to raise string 4 to a G note). In addition, you have the 9th chords and b13 chords you described, so there is a lot there on pedal 8. Thanks for the analysis.
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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]
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John McGann
From:
Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 31 Dec 2003 8:43 am
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Thanks guys!
Forgive me if I overstate the obvious (to those who know this already):
It's good to see the relationship that each dom 7 chord has a substitute a tritone away, i.e. C7 can also be F#7.
What is altered on one chord is natural on another, i.e.
E Bb Db- C7 would be 3, b7, b9
F#7- b7, 3, 13
Bartok took this further (and it can be applied, according to taste, to jazz as well) by seeing each dom 7 chord having the same relationship in minor 3rds that diminshed chords have- so the "family" for C7 would be C7, Eb7, F#7, A7.
Eb7 and A7 have the same relationship as C7 and F#7.
So, learning to think and find these rootless voicings is invaluable!
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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff.
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 31 Dec 2003 10:41 am
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John
It is a typo, yes 
E Bb Db for F#7 is b7 3 5
but anyway F#7 can be a subst for the C7something.
Question is when to substitute and when not to substitute. I used a sort of blues progression to show that when goin from a I to a IV the C7 get substituted as a F# before moving the same top voicing a halftone down to become F7.
Bengt
and last example can be played even easier clearly showing the relationship between the 7#9 and the 13th chord
D---------------------------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------
C----------10------10-----------------9-------------------
A---------------------------------------------------------
G----------10------10-----------------9-------------------
E---------------------------------------------------------
C----------10(8----10(8---------------9(8-----------------
A--10--10------10-----------------------------7----8----9-
F-----------------------10(8-9(8-8(8----------------------
C-------------------------------------------7(8--8(8---9(8
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John McGann
From:
Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 31 Dec 2003 10:54 am
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typo yes arrgh...
OK maybe: p5p6 and 4th string lower, 7th fret:
E Bb Db Eb
C7 b9/#9
F#7 13
not to mention Eb7b9 on bottom and A7partial altered b9/b5 voicing...
So, one of the assumed roots makes the tensions "altered" and one "natural".
As far as what to use when, the most common is to think of a II V progression Dm7 G7( to C major)- the G7 could take natural or altered tensions (although the altered tensions 'want' to resolve to minor, as they are often introducing notes diatonic to a minor key I chord)...but you could easily play a Db7 to substitute for the G7 chord, again natural or altered tensions. Your ear is the best judge.
A wealth of good information and sounds in your post, Bengt- thanks for sharing this!
[This message was edited by John McGann on 31 December 2003 at 10:56 AM.] [This message was edited by John McGann on 01 January 2004 at 09:44 AM.] |
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Harry Williams
From:
Duncan, Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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Posted 2 Jan 2004 3:45 pm
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Bengt:
Thanks for your contribution, I enjoyed trying out your examples.
Tusen Takk! HW
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