Is there an A-Z jazz course for C6?

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Has anyone written a knowledgable and complete course designed to teach a steel player everything a true jazz player would or should know? I've run across bits and pieces, but would love to find this knowledge pulled together into one source, like they use to teach at Berklee, GIT, etc.

If this tome still hasn't been written, does anyone else agree we need it? Could this be done by a consulting group of great steelers pooling their musical knowledge and specific steel skills?

I've been looking for a 6-string jazz guitar book, but then one faces the arduous task of somehow transcribing everything for pedal steel. Ugh. I'm not up to the task, but sure would like to see this realized, if it doesn't already exist.

Your thoughts, gang?

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Lots of thoughts, but nothing you'll like to hear. While their are plenty of C6 courses with tab of songs, they don't address the issues of how to apply modern jazz theory to steel guitar. This includes a number of subjects - chord and substitution theory, scales, the cycle of fifths(fourths). improvisation, and much more. While you can go to any Barnes and Noble and buys books on applying jazz theory to piano and guitar, nothing to the best of my knowledge exists for steel guitar. This accounts for part of the reason that jazz playing on pedal steel is not in the same ballpark as jazz playing on guitar, piano, or horns. Take the best few jazz players imaginable on steel, and there are probably a thousand journeyman jazz guitarists and pianists who can do just as well. And forget the jazz monsters on guitar and piano - they just blow away most anything done on steel. In order to write a book that would put steel jazz playing on a par with guitar and piano, a few of the greatest players would have to pool their thoughts and devote a lot of time and energy to it. Since they would be giving away all of their trade secrets for virtually nothing in return, I can't imagine this happening. For now, steel players have to figure out how to apply jazz theory on their own.

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Sorry to hear that we seem to be information coveters, not sharers. I hope the guys who know this stuff well will prove that view wrong. One reason I teach steel is to pass on what little I know to younger players, otherwise it's going to the grave with me, and that does no one much good. (Another reason I hope Franklin and Emmons will relent and do video courses before it's too late).

If we could talk heavy hitters into helping write this course, would anyone really care or dig in and apply it? Opinions on this, anyone?

One note: be fun to see this course written for both E9 and C6, maybe even universal tuning. Yikes, more work!

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I don't know if you can really teach "jazz". I've always thought of jazz as personal interpretation. I guess some of the various scales can be applied to jazz as part of the interpretation.

I don't find converting from 6 string guitar to pedal steel that bad. I had been playing lead guitar when I started on Pedal Steel and a lot of my "learning" licks involved learning them on my Gretsch first and then transferring it to my pedal steel.

I just got the Band in a Box V11 megapak upgrade and included with that is "Jazz Piano MasterClass Vol 1" and "Jazz Guitar MasterClass Vol 1". Something like that could be used as learning tools.

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

I agree completely, Jeff. In terms of pure music, the best steel guitarists haven't equalled the best musicians in playing truly, deep, meaningful jazz. Guitarists lagged behind pianists & horn players for years in this regard. The closest thing to what you're looking for, John, is "Arnie Berle's Complete Handbook for Jazz Improvisiation - a Practical Guide for All Instruments". Published in 1972 by Amsco Publications. A few years ago, Forumite Mike Perlowin offered copies of a complete C6th pedal steel companion tab book for Berle's course that was written by Harry Guffee. I assume this is long out of print but the cover lists a phone number 203-237-1322 for Steel Guitar Country, in Meriden, CT. Or send Mike an e-mail.

Jerry Hedge · From: Norwood Ohio U.S.A.

First, learn basic music theory. Then learn to apply that to the music you're wanting to play. Don't learn to play steel guitar,learn to play MUSIC!!! The steel guitar is ONLY A TOOL!!!!

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

Hi John, There's a book available by Ken Albert and Jimmy Crawford called "Pedal Steel Guitar, C6th Scales and Modes". It is a small book that only scratches the surface but when you're itching to learn some jazz it feels good to scratch the surface.
Also, I agree with Jack Stoner that its not difficult to transcribe 6 string jazz guitar instructional material to C6th steel. I've posted several C6th turnarounds on the forum and most of them came from Jazz guitar books.
In the mean time, learn a few altered dominant scales to play over the 7th chords. And, try to pick most of the notes instead of sliding the bar from one note to another which is a habit we fall into playing E9. You'll sound a little jazzier. And don't ever tell anybody that you're a jazz player. The more I learn about jazz the more I realize I am not a jazz player if you know what I mean.

mickd · From: london,england

Don
that book sounds good - do you know who sells it ?
Mick

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

If I didn't get that book from Tom Bradshaw then I probably got it from Scotty. Maybe I bought it at a booth at the convention in St. Louis. I don't recall. Probably Tom Bradshaw. If Tom doesn't have it try contacting:

PIXENBAR MUSIC CO.
112 South Valley Rd.
Hendersonville, Tenn. 37075

Steve Stallings · From: Houston/Cypress, Texas

Try this link.... http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/index.html

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas

Todd Pertll · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Jerry couldn't be more right. I studied jazz in college and, as a new steel player, am just now learning to apply it to steel. I think the most important thing is to understand the construction of chords. I would suggest the Jamey Aebersold web site.
http://www.jazzbooks.com/

You will find more than you need here. And the prices always seem very reasonable. For a good book that concentrates on chord voicing I would highly recommend Jazz Piano Voicing Skills by Dan Hearle. He was a professor of mine, and this was his required text.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I have a book called Pedal Steel Guitar- C6th Scales and Modes by Ken Albert that has some discussions of progressions,etc~~

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

I appreciate all the ideas and resource suggestions so far, thanks! I do conclude that what I'm after, a complete, holistic jazz education as played on pedal steel, seems to be missing. Note how many of us point to various other resources, but in order to "learn" yourself jazz, you have to not only find a knowledgeable and trusted source (usually from the guitar or piano perspective), but you then have to do all the conversions (harmony, chords, scales) to steel on your own, and hope you can figure out the most efficient and smart ways. The books on scales and modes mentioned by some ARE helpful, and I have those, but what's missing, imho, is plugging those into a larger context of total jazz knowledge.

Interesting thread here, I hope it's not all old rehash of other past dialogues! Hope what I'm trying to convey makes sense.

In truth, I'm a busy, lazy person who wishes someone would pull all the stuff I should know to be a competent jazz player into one pedal steel-centric book. Volunteers? What about this idea: getting a consensus from you cool steel jazzers on which is the best general book currently available, and then ask for a panel of volunteers to translate the written music into good C6 (or E9 even?) tablature, and have that book's publisher publish our translation.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

wjpauly · From: Woodbury, MN USA

Jim Loessberg, Round Rock, TX, has jazz instructional material for the instrument we all love. He is a forum member.

This is his home page:
click here

Happy Holidays!
Wayne

mickd · From: london,england

I have some of Jim's C6th Jazz arrangements that I got from Scotties and I love them.

The book Don/Jim mentioned is on Tom Bradshaw's web site, but he doesnt seem to be answering emails at the moment.

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

I have been reading this thread for a while and mulling it over, and I have a few miscellaneous thoughts I'd like to express, in no particular order.

-In order for such a thing to happen, the author would find himself in the curious position of inadvertently presenting his/herself as an authority on a very complicated subject. As there are many approachs, it would be easy to have elements of any writing called into question. There are some guys around who know a few things about it, who do not hold any kind of degree from a school of music (like me) who would feel uneasy about saying "This is the way it is". After all, that's why they call it Theory and not Fact.

In my own case, I've studied on my own, (lotsa books) and feel assured enough of that knowledge to base my playing on it, but still can't resist opening any comment in here about theory with the sentence "Now, I've never been to school, but...."
I hope that makes sense.

- I have to respectfully disagree with any notion that we are coveters of information and not sharers. On the contrary, I can't think of a single theorical question that has come up here that there hasn't been some effort to answer, or at least discuss it. Some lively conversations have ensued, and alot of great knowledge has been traded; not the least of which courtesy of a respondent in this thread - Jeff Lampert. I don't know where Jeff learned his stuff, but I know that I have never seen a response from Jeff that didn't correspond exactly with any of the studies I have absorbed. I have also delivered several long-winded dictums in here, some of which I've saved on paper, some in a text file, and some just posted and forgotten.

- "Jazz" is a big word. There are many miles of road between Scott Joplin and Cecil Taylor. So, this raises questions. Where do you start? What level of knowledge would you assume a reader would have to begin with?
Maybe you could audition readers... have them sit down and play "The Preacher", and if when they got to the III chord, they fell off the cliff, you'd know you'd have to haul out "music 101" for them

-Jazz is very much one of those "learn by doing" things.
And it's very easy to look at someone and say "Gee, I wish I could do that". It's kinda like that guy that gets sand kicked in his face by the bully at the beach, and says "wow, I wish I was built like that guy".
Well, you can. But, do you wanna hit the gym every day ? Do you ? Fine, then:
~ Listen to everything you can, intensely, and find sounds you like that you want to learn about.
~ Buy a fakebook, or many fakebooks, and get at it. Study those chords, make note of the way they connect, note the II-V-I changes in all it's incarnations, etc.
~ Find other musicians to play with... the ultimate in importance.
~ Ask questions of someone whose opinion you trust.
~ Post any question you have on the forum, and I would personally guarantee an effort to respond. I know Jeff would too, he has been very kind with his time.
~ With regard to the "what level of knowledge have you acquired" question, it's not a bad idea with jazz to look at it chronologically. Jazz developed, and continues to do so. (One of the few genres of music which does, imho) There's no point trying to decipher a Wayne Shorter composition if you have trouble grasping Fats Waller.

- Theory and practice are two different things, and as Andy said, it's a very interpretational thing too. Some people have told me they think I know alot about theory, yet there are several guys in here who claim to know nothing, yet they play music that's way over my head. (where are you, Rick Schmidt?)

So, I'm going to close with a question, alluding to my third point above:
What would be the title of the first chapter of this book ?

-John

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

mickd · From: london,england

Herb
Can't be sure, but I think that was the title of a track recorded by the 'Bonzo Dog Blues Band' in the 60's.
Mick

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Gee, I knew that line was too good to keep under wraps!

Though I was around for the entire 60's... as well as the entire 50's and a good part of the 40's

... the band you mention seems to have escaped entry into my data base. Did they have any "hits?"

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Steel tryin · From: Macon, Ga.

1st Chapter "THE GROOVE" Time necessary for completion 10-15 years.

mickd · From: london,england

Herb
the Bonzo's were a cult band in England, but they probably never got heard much outside the UK.They had one big hit - it was called 'I'm The Urban Spaceman'.
In the circumstances, I think you can claim independent creative credit for the title

Mick

John Robel · From: colbert washington

Ah yes,the Bonzo Dog Doodah Band, always a good shocker to put on when those anoying people won't leave! Tunes like "My Pink Half of the Drainpipe","Canyons of your mind,Jollity Farm and 9-5 Pollination Blues. I think I'll put on some for grins. John

Steve England · From: Austin, TX

Can Blue Men Sing The Whites
Or Are They Hipocrites?

Herb, ask Paul Skelton (or me) about the Bonzos. I know he knows. They were an English comedy/pop/jazz band. Kind of like a sixties Spike Jones. I'm the Urban Spaceman" was their biggest hit, but not very representative of a lot of their stuff. The "Intro and the Outro" is my favorite, a great satire on showbiz patter featuring a vocalist who spends the entire song introduceing the band (Eric Clapton on Ukelele, Adolf Hitler on vibes, swinging General De Gaule on Accordion, big John Wayne on Sousaphone)

[This message was edited by Steve England on 04 January 2002 at 09:08 AM.]

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Hi John (long time no see BTW)....

If I were to ever attempt writing such a book, I'd probably base it around the way I taught myself C6 in the first place...i.e.;

1)Start with a "Real" jazz fake book
2)Learn one of the melodies that's familiar to you (of course a little reading helps)...like "Misty", "All of Me", "Freedom Jazz Dance"

etc.
3)Next learn the bass note of the progression
4)Then fill in the blanks..i.e. find the Chords. (go slow as you need to at first)

Listen as much as possible to all the greats. (Armstong to Zawinul)Check out the books that they were reading at the time...The "Lydian Chromatic Concept" by George Russell, Slonymsky's "Theosaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns" etc. etc. etc.

Try to visualize yourself phrasing more like a horn or a keyboard than a typical steel guitar hero. (I'm sure B.E. must of had a similar approach)

then jam & clam until the clams start sounding musical....

voilà! You just taught yourself!

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