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Topic: C6 tuning- 3rd or 5th on top? |
Lynn Kasdorf
From:
Waterford Virginia, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2003 9:33 am |
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I am curious about why many folks playing 8 string c6 use a tuning with the 3rd on top (E for c6) rather that 5th on top (G for c6)?
I play GECEGECA (hi to low) and sometimes tune the low A to Bb for a C13th.
I find the G on top to be TREMENDOUSLY useful. For one thing, I like the similarity to standard Dobro tuning (the same intervals, but with the 6th thrown in). I find that high G to come in so handy for melody notes, slants, etc, that I just can't do without it.
On my 2nd neck, I have E13 with third on top, and I am constantly missing that high note.
Obviously, you can get used to anything, and lots of great non-pedal players use this tuning, but what is the advantage of shifting the strings up so the 3rd is on top? Is it simply the availability of an extra note on the bottom? |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2003 10:02 am
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The reason I don't have a G on top is because the timbre of that string does NOT fit with the sound I want. EVEN though the notes are often nice to have at your finger tips. The gauge of this string, especially when played with other harmony notes just does NOT sound right to me.
The best way for me to describe this is to use the pedal steel guitar (assuming you play one) as an example. When I play "B6th" type songs on my PSG, there are two places basically that the 3rd and 5th tones of the chord can be achieved. One is on strings 5 and 6 with no pedals. The other one is strings 4 and 5 with the A pedal engaged.
When I try to play tunes like "Cocoanut Grove" using the latter example it does not sound nearly as mellow and sweet as when I play it using strings 5 and 6. This is the same concept using a G on top on the lap style C6 tuning.
The second reason is; I prefer to have an 8th string other than the A string. So I need for the first string to start with an E note.
Finally, for fast triplett type playing when I change tunings from C6 to A6th, my middle finger gets in the way if that first string is a G. Also, it serves little purpose when I tune the guitar to A6th or E9th. It is just too thin sounding IMO.
But if you like it and it suits you, by all means, go with it.
carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 13 January 2003 at 10:07 AM.] |
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Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2003 11:59 am
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I like having an E on the top string so I can fudge other tunings like E, C#m and A.
There a lot of triplet playing and "Hawaiian hiccup" stuff in older marches and such (ie Hilo March) that is played on the E string and having it on top makes those moves a lot easier.
-Bill
PS Nice to see you again here Carl!  |
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Bob Stone
From:
Gainesville, FL, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2003 1:51 pm
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Lynn,
I agree with Carl, the timbre of that high G is too thin and wimpy for me (I'm not as polite as him). I played a Fender DeLuxe 8 (22.5") with a high G on top in a Cajun band for a few years. We played almost exclusively in G and C and I needed an open G tuning for Dobro-like rolls to fit the music. I tried all gauges of strings and never got that high G to sound nice.
Many steelers--particularly those who play a lot of western string--use your tuning, but pitched to A6. That way you have the (5th) on top. I've tried that, but find that it makes the rest of the strings (when gauged properly for A6) a little heavier than what I like. In my opinion, string gauges are a significant factor in determining the success and popularity of certain tunings. The gauges for C6 are sooooo nice.
I can empathasize with what you are going through. Having the 5th on top is very useful. But you can eventually get used to having the 3rd on top. I started with Dobro tuning and it seemed like it took me forever to get used to that 3rd on top when I began to play C6.
Good luck.
And welcome back, Carl. |
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Jeff Au Hoy
From:
Honolulu, Hawai'i
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Posted 13 Jan 2003 2:06 pm
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Last edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 16 Jan 2018 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Stone
From:
Gainesville, FL, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2003 10:29 am
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| Interesting about Bobby Ingano using the high G, Jeff. He gets great tone! He's one of my favorite players. |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 14 Jan 2003 10:55 am
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| Jr Brown has the G on top and I've tried this for awhile, but I like the E better becaus the G does sound kinda thin compared to the E. Plus, most of the lessons I have are geared to the E on top. I would really be interested in knowing why those who use a G on top, like that better than an E? |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 14 Jan 2003 1:19 pm
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| Welcome back, Carl. Your knowledge is much appreciated 'round here. I also find G too high and use a bunch of tunings all based on a high E. And lastly, as a guitar player since age 17, I like the crutch of always having an E on top in a band situation. Regardless of the tuning, if I get lost, I can always play a solo on the E string if I had to. sounds silly, I guess, but it helps and I need all the help i can get! |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2003 1:25 pm
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I, for the same aforementioned reasons, like the E on top of the C6th. Playing Hawaiian on a Fender Dual 8 Professional sounds way too thin for me with the G on top;___and I like a trebley sound.
Hall of Fame member Johnny Sibert was my hero when I was a kid. When I got old enough to begin playing, I "chased his tone" and became addicted to the Fender sound. To this day, I carry this sound over into the Hawaiian music that I play. I have a bakelite 8-string Rick (post war) ; but to my ear, it just dies not sound as good as the Fender.
Rick
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 14 Jan 2003 1:50 pm
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| If you all have ever heard of "Mick Goodrick", he has taught the biggest stars from Pat Matheny to...etc. One of his big things is for you to learn all your scales on a single string. That's one of the deep Jazz secrets for guitar. Thanks Andy for making me realize to use it on steel. |
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Dave Birkett
From:
Oxnard, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2003 2:12 pm
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| I agree that the high G can sound thin, but, for me who has one guitar and needs to play Don Helms parts at his gig, I leave it on so I can tune to E13 with a G#. This sounds better than playing the Hank parts on the 25th fret. When I tune to A7/C6, I generally don't use the first string. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 14 Jan 2003 3:01 pm
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| Yeah! Mick Goodrick! His book "The Advancing Guitarist" has about two lifetimes worth of work in it but the one thing I took away from reading it was the value of knowing how to play vertically along the strings. That's a key element of Pat Matheny's sound as well as that of Indian steel players like Debashis Battacharya who has has taken this kind of playing to an astounding level of technique in service of musical expression. |
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Todd Weger
From:
Safety Harbor, FLAUSA
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Posted 15 Jan 2003 5:39 am
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| Quote: |
| Obviously, you can get used to anything, and lots of great non-pedal players use this tuning, but what is the advantage of shifting the strings up so the 3rd is on top? Is it simply the availability of an extra note on the bottom? |
Well, I don't know about the "great non-pedal player" part (in my case), but for playing Hawaiian music in Dick Sanft's style (who indeed IS a great non-pedal player!), that indeed would be one of the reasons. That low C on the bottom (Dick uses a .065 down there) really adds richness, particularly when it comes to song endings. The other thing is overall timbre of a chord voiced with the third on top, OR the major 7th (for example, substituting a G palm-harmonic strum with bar at the 7th fret, over a C in the bass for a sweeeeeet CMaj9 ending to a song).
I have to agree with Carl, Bob and many others here though -- that high G string does indeed sound too thin and wimpy to my ears. That said, however, I can see the reason for having it there, and it's usefulness, particularly for playing westernswing and rockabilly.
I had a similar dilemma about a year ago. I have it tuned with the high G on my D8, and I really had gotten used to that 5th on top. I couldn't see not having it there. I got my T8, and tuned the C6 the same way. After meeting Dick though, he retuned it with the E on top, and the tone just bloomed -- so much more LUSH sounding!
Now, I just leave it that way on the T8, and keep the high G on my D8. When I play Hawaiian, I use the T8 (which has E13 in the middle, and A6 on the outside neck, which I retune for B11 when necessary). When I have gigs for westernswing, honky-tonk or rockabilly, I use the D8. Works just fine me!
Of course, YMMV -- have fun!
TJW
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Todd James Weger/RD/RTD
1956 Fender Stringmaster T-8 (C6, E13, B11); 1960 Fender Stringmaster D-8 (C6, E13); Melobar SLS lapsteel (open D); Chandler RH-4 Koa semi-hollow lapsteel (open G); Regal resonator (open D or G)
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Lynn Kasdorf
From:
Waterford Virginia, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2003 8:17 am
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Thanks for all the great info, folks. I play Western Swing mostly on the non pedal, and I play Fenders (a D8 stringmaster and a T8 custom). I guess I like the bright tone of these guitars, and never noticed the g sounding thin. One of my main non-pedal idols is Bobby Koeffer, who has the G on top, and plays a fender. He goes for a very bright tone- I think his treble is on 11...very much "in your face". Very dry also- little or no reverb.
Some reasons I like the high G:
1. Nice swing harmonic licks- they just fall nicely on the top 3 strings. Arpeggiate a chord on strings 4, 3, 2, 1, then with only string one ringing, slide up 5 frets to end on the tonic- nice
2. easy forward slant on strings 1 & 2 to get a IV chord
3. The open g is nice for lots of things- since many of our tunes are in G, the open high G gives me lots of cool hammer-scale kinds of things. I also use it open in various ways- like as a b7 with a A or A6 chord. I use the open 1st string on dobro a lot, so much carries over.
I put the heaviest gauge string I can get away with up there, so wimpyness is not really a problem for me. I think I run a .015
Anyway, you good folks have answered my question. Thanks[This message was edited by Lynn Kasdorf on 15 January 2003 at 08:21 AM.] |
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Brandin
From:
Newport Beach CA. USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2003 8:59 am
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I like the 5th on top.
GB |
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Jeff Au Hoy
From:
Honolulu, Hawai'i
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Posted 15 Jan 2003 9:10 am
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...
Last edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 16 Jan 2018 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ralph H. Moorehead
From:
Las Vegas, Nv. Clark
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Posted 15 Jan 2003 9:55 am
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| I have a sho-bud pro 2 but I use it as a non pedal a lot. ( I also use pedals ). I found that most of the players I knew used C6th with a .010 or a .011 on top as a G. I thought it was too thin so I tried using an .012. It works well and doen't break as some thought it would. |
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Tony Harris
From:
England
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Posted 15 Jan 2003 11:39 am
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| Do any of you lap steel players use a D on top (above the E)? Like the C6 pedal tuning? It means you can grab that note in fast tunes or licks without sliding up or down two frets to find it. And get the typical pedal sound of both of those strings ringing together, a whole tone apart. Having said that, I still find, as a long-time guitar-player,that six strings are all I can handle... |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2003 12:13 pm
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Ralph a ShoBud is a 24" scale and therefore no string break problem with a .012 or even a .013 for a G note.
I've never had a problem with the high G note sounding Thin...cause I use a .013 on short scale steels.
Tommy Morrell plays with the G on top and I would beg to differ that it sounds thin and/or wimpy.
Technique is a big part of anything not sounding proper. If you would like to have a G on top but you are not happy with the sound of it; E-mail me and I can help you with some tips and techniques.
Ricky
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John Kavanagh
From:
Kentville, Nova Scotia, Canada * R.I.P.
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Posted 16 Jan 2003 8:04 am
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I use an e on top in a D13 tuning: cdf#abd'f#'e'. That's the same as C6 with a d. I got the idea from b0b, who likes it as a compromise between C6 and E13 sounds, and I'd agree.
The 9th on top is good as a melody note, and also for some chords, especially if you don't mind pulling strings. It's almost worth having just for the I6-IV7 moves.
My other tuning is a G6 with an e on top. If the 5th on top is good, a 6th must be even better!
[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 16 January 2003 at 08:06 AM.] |
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Robbie Daniels
From:
Casper, Wyoming, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2003 11:23 am
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I have been reading all the good information here and thought perhaps I would interject my tuning method, which is not spectacular, but I like it. I was introduced to C6 over fifty years ago, when Jerry Byrd was king (maybe he still is). I prefer the following C6 tuning C E G A C E G D, bottom up. Sometimes I change the 8th string to C# and sometimes I change the 7th string to F, depending on what I am playing, but I like the high G to give me easy reaches for tunes like "Adventures In Paradise" and the D on the first string gives me some additional flavor. The reamining six strings give me the standard (or my standard) C6 tuning for sweet hawaiian or laid back country (like George Morgan, etc.)
I hope this is of interest to someone. But the real thing is keep steelin'. Tunings and gauges are all relevant to how easy one can locate strings they desire and what they hear. We all play differently and we all hear differently.
Cheeers to all. |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2003 11:58 am
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As Lynn mentioned using a .015 at the top to solve the thinny sound for a G, I needed at least a .016 to get it to sound correct on my Rick B8. Not too stiff and I've not broken one yet.
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