What makes a good lap steel?

Stu Alt · From: Scottsdale, Arizona, USA

I'm new to this forum and a square neck wooden resonator player to boot, but I'm kind of intrigued by these lap steel things. I don't know much about 'em though.

Some general questions:

Are the new ones as good as the old ones?

Which older styles and brands are recognized as superior? Why?

How important is the type of plastic used (eg bakelite, etc)?

Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Welcome to the world of "fun playing"!

I believe you're going to find as many different preferences for "the lap steel"....as there are players.

Personally, after having played any number of makes/models over the years.........my uncompromising preference is the old prewar Rick Bakelite models; strings thro' the body and 1 1/2 inch pickups, regardless of whether it has a "tone control" know or not.
The tone is unbelieveable...... This applies both to the six and seven string models.

You can find all makes out there.....many of which have no TONE whatsoever......yet have a large following of admirers.

I have a post war Rick Bakelite with the smaller pickup and metal string attachment rather than "strings thro' the body"....and the tone is noticeably more "shrill". ALl other Bakelite pluses are there and it is a fun guitar to play.

I have a double-8 on a wooden body...with the 1 1/4 inch pickup. Nice sustain but the tone is just not the same.

Hope this helps you in some way.

Ian McLatchie · From: Sechelt, British Columbia

Stu: Welcome to the wonderful world of electric lap steel. As you'll discover quickly enough, almost any old lap steel you put your hand to has its appeal, and even some pretty low-end instruments (Supros, for instance) can sound terrific for certain types of music. For their versatility as much as their superior quality, though, Rickenbachers and Fenders are probably the favorites of most players. The most popular Rickenbacher, as Ray says, is the pre-war bakelite (good luck trying to find the aluminum "frying pan" at an affordable price). Of the Fenders, any instrument with either the twin pickups (i.e. the Stringmaster or Deluxe) or the trapezoidal, wrap-around pickup (i.e. Dual Professional, Deluxe or Custom) is well worth seeking out. Gibson also made some fine lap steels, particularly the EH-150 and EH-185, and there are literally hundreds of other models by dozens of manufacturers that you may find suit your needs.
As for contemporary builders, there are lots of excellent instruments being made today, including Melobars and Sierras. I must say, though, that none has the same appeal for me as a primo old Rickenbacher, Fender or Gibson. I currently have a half dozen lap and table steels by these three makers, dating from 1935 to 1956, and they're all so beautiful and distinctively styled that I value them almost as much for their visual appeal as their immense playability. Happy hunting - and good luck limiting yourself to just one purchase!

[This message was edited by Ian McLatchie on 14 July 2002 at 07:16 PM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Welcome to this great Forum Stu !

Have a look on Ebay for Steel guitars
you'll see what's around + how much.
(that don't mean you gotta buy there)
i often go there and perfect my education.
Rickenbacher, Gibson + Nationals were the first and the best imho.
Fender Supro, were good too.
Steel wishin' ya' L

L

Steelin'France

Todd Weger · From: Safety Harbor, FLAUSA

Ummmmmmm.... absolute desperation?

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Stu........eBay does afford one an excellent opportunity to see what various makes/models are selling for. They tend to be at a HIGHER cost than if you could find same in your local music store. There's a beautiful Rick there now.......a post war model. From the photo's, this appears to be one that sold a month or so ago for around $750...which is about $350 more than most would pay for that model. The current advertiser is trying to sell it "now" for only $625. but from where I sit, that too, is quite HIGH.
I picked one up just two months ago at a guitar swap meet for only $450 and it's in immaculate condition with a great case.
Look...but don't jump before you have some inside knowledge on your side. It's easy to get stung without knowing it.
My first Rick 7 stringer was found in the junk box of a local small time music store and I paid only $350 for it. These routinely go for around $750 and HIGHER.
Don't give up! Just proceed with caution and not emotion, okay?

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

"What makes a good lap steel?"

I'm not a factory rep for Richenbacher, trust me, however I do have to share this with you.

I recently acquired a Rick Bakelite 6-string.
The neck was broken off right where it comes in contact with the body.

A friend of mine in Texas, a Rickenbacher expert, made a few suggestions which I followed up on and I am so happy today to share with you........ that I now have a fully restored Rick lap steel with tone to spare; that SPECIAL RICK MOAN.......; a strong and powerful pickup that anyone might kill for. The sound/moan is one of the best of 12 Ricks that I currently own.

I'm so very happy that I was successful in my first attempt at restoration of this beautiful sounding vintage steel guitar.

It's now alive "again" and once more capable of putting out some of the sweetest steel guitar sounds ever heard. I'd have to say that what makes "a good lap steel" is the instruments tolerance for repair. Only on close examination at the 10th fret, can one notice the blemish where the flat, polished fret board was badly chipped upon breaking.

Ahmen. Thank you.

Brad Bechtel · From: San Francisco, CA

Two things make a good lap steel in my opinion:
1) The tone, both amplified and unamplified. You can hear what a good guitar sounds like even when it's unplugged.
2) The quality of the construction. Good parts means good music. The less that gets in the way of your music, the better you'll play.

The older styles and brands which are recognized as superior would include:
1) Rickenbacker - any of the Bakelite models, the Frying Pan (Model A22 and A25)
2) Fender - especially the Deluxe and Stringmaster models
3) Gibson - the EH series in particular
4) National - the New Yorker and Dynamic models
5) Some people enjoy the sound of the lightweight Supro models and the Oahus made by Supro. When overdriven these can produce a really nice sound.

There are MANY good lap steels being made currently. See my web site for a listing of some of the manufacturers.

------------------
Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 17 July 2002 at 09:16 AM.]

Todd Weger · From: Safety Harbor, FLAUSA

Say Brad, about the Ricky Bakelites: I've had the chance to play a pre-war 7-stringer here locally, and the tone WAS totally amazing!

However, I've read things on this board from people regarding extended use, and tuning problems due to the body material becoming warm. Is that problem exaggerated, or does it become a real problem when recording or playing live (not that I'd probably take out a vintage backlite out to play live)? The guy who has it MAY want to sell it, and it's in pretty pristine condition. I think he told me he wanted $1,500 for it. Seems steep, but after hearing it -- WOW!

Thanks!
TJW

George Keoki Lake · From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

IMHO most, not all guitars have a decent tone. You'll come across the odd cluncker and recognize it for such. With most any guitar, what you do with your left hand will produce whatever tone you are seeking. You can take the same guitar, same amp and have 10 players have a go at it...the result will sound like 10 "different" guitars. That's the beauty which is found in the steel guitar which you'll seldom find in other instruments. JMHO

Zayit · From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

Hi Stu!

You've gotten some pretty good advice here from guys like Ian, Ray & Keoki and I dont often contradict them. But I'll try to cover some ground that they didnt cover on this dicussion:

You didnt say whut kinda music you play- Hawaiian, Swing, Blues/Rock, Folk, Jazz? Each brand of steel sounds a little better for the different kinds of music. A true master can play any ol' axe & make it sound good, but the rest of us have to fit our equipment to the style that we play. For instance- 'Swing' players like the Fender long scale models because the trebly, percussive tone without much sustain cuts through big bands with horns & fiddles.

If you play rock- pick up a Supro, tune it to 'open E', turn on the overdrive and launch into the intro to Led Zep's "When the Levee Breaks" & you'll see what I mean. The sustain lasts forever.

You didnt say if you have a budget or not? If you dont, then grab the prewar rick bakelight and be done with it- you'll be happy. If you do have a budget, some of the low-end models are more versatile than others. Basil H. has mentioned his Leilani Varsity model on this forum several times. I have one as well. Besides being dirt cheap & lightweight, I can pick it farther from the pickup if I want a trebly Fender sound & closer to the handrest for a throatier sound to accompany "folky" stuff. Overdriven, for blues it simply screams. The metal bodied Ricks are generally disdained on this forum, but they sound great for rock at a fraction of the price of bakelights.

I found a 1937 Epiphone engraved bakelight top/wooden bottom with horseshoe pickup that has "the moan" for alot less than the prewar bakelights are going for. Play alot of axes & buy one (or several) that you like & can afford.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Hey Todd! I'd reconsider that 7-string Bakelite for $1,500. I have three and not one of them set me back anywhere near that price. It's a great model to have and the sound is wonderful. The 7-string version, I understand, is somewhat more rare than the six stringers..........but? (in fact, not one of my Ricks came anywhere close to that figure)
Tuning problem? I've had some with my all metal neck Bigsby (under TV lights and in the outdoor cooling of night) and with just about any other guitar I've ever attempted to play.......I've had to adjust the strings from time to time for accuracy.
I've not experienced any incompatablility with my Ricks regarding tuning....of course, I do so my "ear" so it's no hassel for me.

Del Rangel · From: Clayton, NC

I would talk with Ted Smith at Melobar. He is building lap-steels now that are resin impregnated under pressure and utilize phenolic blocks under the bridge and the string-through segment of the body. I have a six-string proto-type he built with a low impedence BL pick-up and it is something else. Does a great job of moving towards the bakelite sound that everyone seems to love without the expense and hassle that can be associated with vintage instruments. My 2 cents anyway.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Del........any chance they'll have one of those available at the St.Louis dealy?

Del Rangel · From: Clayton, NC

I doubt it. His mother is battling cancer and is laid-up so he has wanted to stay around Sweet. E-mailing him and expressing interest would be good though.

Stu Alt · From: Scottsdale, Arizona, USA

Thanks for the feedback, everybody.

I suppose the modern equivalent to "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" is "How many guitars can a person have?"!!!

oj hicks · From: Springville, AL

Hi, Stu.

For present market lap steels I like the Sierra. I also have a post war Rick Bakelite and an Excel Frypan copy. In my opinion the Sierra wins, hands down. It all depends upon what you like. I have heard bOb really praise the Sierra lap steel. He apparently purchased one of the early models and said it is the best sounding steel he has ever played. You can probably find his comments on the forum by using the search engine. As I recall he said he liked to take it on gigs, but then it sounded so good that when he went back to his pedal steel it sounded pretty bland. Hope I'm not misquoting you, bOb.

The only thing, the Sierras are not cheap. They are made with a sheet of aluminum sandwiched between hard maple (I believe that is the materials). This continuous sheet of aluminum, to which is ancored the strings and tuning keys, apparently has a lot to do with the excellent sustain. The pickup is great...and the tone about whatever you want from the adjustments on the guitar...and especially on a tube amp.

None of these comments are meant as a slam on the Excel Frypan or the post war Rick...both great guitars. I just prefer the sound of the Sierra...nice wide string spacing...and I love the eight strings.

oj hicks

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Stu, I'm sure that you're more uncertain of what to get now than before....heck, just get them all. You'll never be sorry. One thing is certain though, better advice you will not get anywhere else. That's a natural fact. Keep us posted with what you end up doing. We like to hear that.

Stu Alt · From: Scottsdale, Arizona, USA

Thanks for all the advice.

I lurked around eBay for a while and finally picked up a Rickenbacker from the early 60's. I think it'll suit me just fine.

I've got it tuned to C6 and now comes the fun part - taming the beast!

George Keoki Lake · From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

Howard has a point. I have 15 steel guitars and wish I were a centipede as I would then be able to play all of them at once.

Which one would I part with ? hmmmm, if you had 10 children, which one would you part with ? Each guitar has a characteristic tone of their own. I love each one of them.

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

There ya' go....that wasn't too difficult, now was it?.....and in record time, right in between two posts!

...Hey b0b, enough with these Santa hats already....

[This message was edited by HowardR on 28 December 2002 at 02:00 PM.]

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