Scale Lengths

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Can anybody tell me the pro's and con's of the different scale lengths? I mean, there's 22." to 26." Thanks

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 01 December 2002 at 08:32 AM.]

oj hicks · From: Springville, AL

Hi, Jesse.

String spacing being equal, the short scale is better for slants on non-pedal. This is one of the reasons Jerry Byrd prefers the short scale guitar.

oj hicks

mikey · From: New Jersey

SLANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!In the lower registers in particular.
Mike

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

22.5" scle with 3/8" string spacing is optimal for playing in tune slants. The trade off is higher string tension as well as tone. With a 24" scale, it starts to get hairier to get accurate slants below the 5th fret but the richness of tone increases and the action - depending on string gauges - can get a bit looser. 26" scales can offer fabulous tone but slants are close to immpossible on the lower frets. Harmonics tend to ring out better on a longer scale. Jerry Byrd, of course, disproves this general rule in his specific mastery of short scale instruments.

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 27 November 2002 at 07:09 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

How about the 22.1/4" that J.B. plays sometimes, is it better than 22.5"? I looked at the Excell home page and they say their short scale is 22." is this a mistake? Thanks again!

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Hey Andy, is this right?
quote:
_______________________________

22.5" scle with 3/8" string spacing
is optimal for playing in tune slants.
The trade off is higher string
tension...
___________________________________

Check out John Tipka's site, "How to build a steel guitar". He says the string tension is less with the short scale. http://www.iwaynet.net/~steelgtr/build.html

Has anybody played a 22." scale? I think Don Helms Gibson Console Grande had a 24 5/8 scale, and he never used slants. I want to buy or build a triple table steel in the near future so the scale issue is important.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I always felt that the longer scales had more sustain.
Erv

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Well, string gauges are a big factor in action too. I wouldn't want to contradict John T. - he's very knowledgeable guy - so I guess the real answer is "it depends".

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

This question has been addressed by myself to
Don Randall and Leo Fender. I have always felt that the 22/1/2 length has less tension
and my feelings are that the 22/1/2 has as much sustain as the longer scale Stringmaster

The 26" inch scale to my ear was not as mellow as the shorter scale necks,and the issue was string breakage on the 26" necks.

See Guitar Player Feb 1988 for comments made to Leo Fender by myself regarding this,Richard
Smith wrote the article in the "Rare Bird Column.

I do like both however,,but the shorter scale
is my preference.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

It's true that the tension is less on a shorter scale....but that is if you use the guages that you would normally use on a longer scale.
But the shorter scale steel should have bigger guaged strings on it as bar pressure intonation is a big factor if you don't. So with bigger string guages on a short scale will have some pretty good tension if not the same as a long scale with normal string guages.
Now....I truely believe....that a 3/8" string spacing from bridge to nut and a perfect 24" scale is the Perfect match for tone/sustain/bar slants.
I have no problem on the lower fret bar slants with this scale length; as long as it's 3/8" spacing all the way.
I do like the shorter scale Fenders as I believe with bigger string guages...just create a great sound and intonation up and down the neck and with bar slants.....but I don't like overly thick strings than what I'm used to.....so that's why I built the perfect steel seen below....>the SS HAWAIIAN.

------------------
Ricky Davis

My Homepage
Rebel™ and Ricky's Audio Clips
www.mightyfinemusic.com
Email Ricky: sshawaiian@aol.com

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Hey guys, this is great stuff! It's got me wondering if certain tunings, scale lengths, string gauges and celebrity styles are all connected into identifiable combinations, so as to nail that style and sound. What would be the holy grail of combinations, that would afford the greatest musical flexibility of styles, tone and sustain? I'm getting alot out of simple C6 and E6 w/ six strings on a 22.5 scale with slightly heavier gauges. Ricky seems to have found his primo combination. Ricky, could you please share with us your preferred tuning and the string gauges you use on your SS Hawaiian? Plus alittle insight on why. Thanks!

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 30 November 2002 at 12:16 PM.]

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 30 November 2002 at 12:27 PM.]

Mark Durante · From: St. Pete Beach FL

While slants on a 26 inch scale are more difficult in the low positions, slants (and playing in general) in the higher registers is easier, additionally there is more playable area than with shorter scales. The high G# does like to break sometimes but it's a real big sound.

[This message was edited by Mark Durante on 30 November 2002 at 12:06 PM.]

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Jesse; I have all my different tunings and guages on my home computer and reasons why.....but I'm outta town right now...so I'll plop them up when I get home.
I do use a few different tunings...depending on what I got going on musically.
Ricky

Jeff Strouse · From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA

Great information, Ricky! I've always enjoyed your website and the beautiful S.S. Hawaiian. I'd like to see your tuning list too. Thanks for all that you share!

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Ok here is one of the tunings I use for C6th and a turn here and a turn there; and I transpose it to D 6/9.



(C6th)                  (D6/9)       (Guage)


1) G     down 1/2>        F#          .012p


2) E     down whole>      D           .014p


3) C     down 1/2>        B           .017p


4) A     stay same>       A           .020p


5) G     down 1/2>        F#          .026w


6) E     stay same        E           .030w


7) C     up whole>        D           .036w


 Bb    up whole>        C           .038w


9) A     stay same>       A           .042w


10 F     up 1/2>          F#          .054w

Here is the other tunings and guages I use.....and all these tunings are used on a 24" scale 10-string SS HAWAIIAN.



(E13+9)





F#   .013 plain


G#   .012  "


E    .014  "


C#   .018  "


B    .020  "


G#   .024 wound


F#   .028  "


E    .032  "


D    .036  "


C#   .040  "





(C6)





G    .012 plain


E    .014  "


C    .017  "


A    .020  "


G    .026 wound


E    .030  "


C    .036  "


A    .042  "


G    .048  "


F    .054  "

Have fun.

------------------
Ricky Davis

My Homepage
Rebel™ and Ricky's Audio Clips
www.mightyfinemusic.com
Email Ricky: sshawaiian@aol.com

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Thanks Ricky, appreciate it. This is really insightful!

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Here is a string gauge chart from John Ely's great non pedal steel site,
http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/learning/gauges.html

John talks about different string gauges for different scale lengths and what kind of string tension they produce. This coincides with what Andy Volk and Ricky Davis had to say.

David Doggett · Posted 4 Dec 2002 7:26 pm

Here's some perspective from a different instrument, but with a lot longer history. The better pianos have longer but thinner strings. The concert grands have something like 8 or 9 feet for their low strings. What you get with the longer thinner strings is richer overtones (fatter sound) and longer sustain.

To hear this effect on your guitar, bar a string at the second or third fret, then go to progressively lower strings and find the same note at a higher fret. You are then comparing a long thin string with a short fat one, at the same note or frequency.

The tension should not be an issue. If you keep the same string guages and tune to the same notes, you will have less tension on a longer neck (or maybe it's the other way around). But you can get any tension you want on any length neck by changing string guages. Ideally, once you find the tension you like, you should adjust your string guages so that they all have the same tension. There are rules and tables for how to do that, and I have seen them somewhere on the Forum.

It is easier to play in tune, especially on the high frets, with a longer neck, because you have more latitude to make fine adjustments. Also, you get way better sustain on the high frets with a longer neck.

As someone said above, on a long neck the lower slants will be hard, and some may be impossible, but the higher ones will be easier. So this gets down to personal preference and style, and has to do with what keys you mostly play in, and where you do most of your slants, and which slants you do.

Hope this helps. It almost sounds like I know what I'm talking about.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 04 December 2002 at 07:30 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Here is a sound rule on string tension v/ pitch: 1) A plain (unwound) string can be raised or lowerd 2 frets in pitch only.
2) A (wound) string can be raised or lowered 3 frets in pitch.

Long scale necks have great sustain, but break strings more often and make slanting down by the nut harder or impossible. Long scale necks have more usable range past the 15th fret without the tone becoming tight and brittle sounding. Long scale breaks less strings with the lighter gauge side of a strings intended picth.

Short scale necks are much easier to play down by the nut, for slanting that is and don't break strings like the long scale. Short scale necks start to become tight and brittel with tone at the 17th fret and higher. This requires more bar pressure to compensate and restore more sustain. Short scale has Mo-Tone(better) with the heavier gauge side of a strings intended pitch.

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Howdy Jim, I'm glad you brought that point up. I don't know anyone who uses a plain unwound 6th string, that might be alittle Kolohe, don't ya think? Now, if a player needed to switch between tunings on the same neck, he might compromise between the high and low potentials of a pitch to reach the desired flexibility between two different pitches, a kamai! But tone wise, there would be a compromise between what works best for the individual pitch v/ achievable flexibility between two separate pitches. Thanks and have a olu'olu day.
P.S. I'm originally from the great state of Texas!

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Thanks Jim, now I see what you mean. Could you please share with us what tuning and or tunings you are speaking about and what gauge strings and scale lengths. Tuning charts don't really talk about this, but I have seen this come to think of it.

Hi Jeff, I can't tell, if I could I wouldn't have to ask these questions. I do know Dick McIntire used a long scale fry pan with extra big magnets. His single line solos have a thickness to them. Did the long scale help dictate the evolution of his style, that is, he didn't use alot of harmony voicings in his lead lines. Combinations of elements and what's easy and hard to produce with those combinations, will affect where it's all going. It seems the greats historically have tried different combinations thoughout their lifetimes. All we can do is get hip to what those combinations are and utilize the ones we like best.

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Jesse, maybe we're talking apples and oranges. I was talking about the 6th string G# on an E9 pedal steel tuning. I really don't know much about non-pedal tunings.

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