Where did the tuning C#Minor come from? Was it ever popular?

George Rout · From: St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Hi folks. When I first took Hawaiian guitar lessons in 1948, along with the A Major and E Major (and E7th) there was another tuning often listed on the TAB or music and that was C#Minor. See the attached page with Mary Lou. As you know, I've stuck mostly with the A Major and A6, E Major and E7 and some C6th.

Where did this C#Minor come from and did it ever become a popular tuning?

This question surely shows my ignorance of tunings in general!!!

Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

Geo
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Mike Neer · From: NJ

Sol Hoopii used this tuning towards the end of his career. In fact, the guitar I was given of his by Ian Ufton had this tuning on it. I believe Ian kept it the in same tuning as Sol when he finally changed the strings.
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Nic Neufeld · From: Kansas City, Missouri

That looks to be one of the tunings that was popular back then (and sometimes attributed to Sol Hoopii?). I'm not an expert at all on those tunings but there's plenty of discussion here around those early tunings. Here's a nice and informative thread:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=281635

I think that one is usually called the C#m7 (E-C#-G#-E-D-B) although I'm thinking that D doesn't fit anywhere in a C#m7...C#m7b9? Could also be thought of as an E6 tuning with a b7 (the D), so maybe a kind of E13?

Edit upon seeing above comment...really cool story Mike! Do you still get it out and play it?
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

The copyright date on that arrangement is 1946. The C#m may appear to be an obvious misnomer now, but maybe the 13th chord extension had not been utilized at that point in time. Not to hijack the thread, but does anyone know when Leon McAuliffe started calling his tuning E13?

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I tuned one of the necks on my T-8 Stringmaster to a C#m7th tuning.
I put a B in after the C#.
You had kind of an E and an A tuning combined. Very Happy

Erv

Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

I believe Santo played Sleepwalk in C#m tuning. Probably the highest charting and biggest selling steel guitar instrumental ever.

Frank Welsh · From: Upstate New York, USA

In a "Guitar Player" interview many years ago, Santo said he recorded "Sleepwalk" and "Tear Drop" in C#m7 tuning.

David Matzenik · From: Cairns, on the Coral Sea

Sam Koki's "Paradise Isle," composed for the movie of the same name in 1937, has to be one of the most famous C#m steel pieces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmZyWyuEbdM
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Tom Snook · From: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, USA

Dick McIntyre?
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Mike Neer · From: NJ

The tuning in question is E C# G# E D B.

The bottom two strings differ from Sol's old C#min tuning. Some other folks like Dick McIntire modified the tuning to be F#9 by lowering strings 5 and 6 to C# and A#.
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Jeremy DeHart · From: North Carolina, USA

Here is an excerpt from Guy Cundell's excellent research from his "Across the Pacific" paper on Hawaiian music:

Scott Thomas · Posted 15 May 2020 11:36 am

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I believe you need 8 strings when you vary from a straight major tuning otherwise your range is limited. Very Happy

Erv

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Jeremy DeHart · From: North Carolina, USA

I would assume this was due to it being one of the first tunings with a minor triad on top. The C# minor tuning being it’s close relative but more styled after the high bass A with matching triads. This was used for Sol K. Brights version of La Rosita as Mike displays here:

https://youtu.be/vo55s6s9bmU

Jeremy DeHart · From: North Carolina, USA

Another reason it was called C#m and not E6 is because as Guy points out in his paper the 6th was not generally accepted in the Jazz pantheon at that point meaning people didn’t really want to hear that interval. Kind of an archaic concept seeing as we now accept all intervals and so much more. But that is an interesting point Guy makes and he is citing Count Basie.

Scott Thomas · Posted 15 May 2020 5:03 pm

I have an old steel guitar folio which references what we commonly know as C6, but calls it A minor 7.

Scott Thomas · Posted 15 May 2020 6:01 pm

Aaron Brownwood · From: San Diego, Ca

I've been learning from the Jerry Byrd book and it gives a great overview of these tunings. The way I understand the difference between C#m, C#m9, and E13 tunings is that while you could call one the other, there are distinctions between them. Here's the evolution of the E tunings as I understand it, all tunings Low to Hi and focusing on top 6 strings for simplicity, despite some tunings being 8 string.

E Major: EBEG#BE
E Dominant: EBDG#BE
C#m: BDEG#C#E
C#m9: BDF#G#C#E
E13: DEG#BC#E

They called it C#m because it was the first time you could get a minor triad at the bar. It's still key of E major but with a relative minor on top.

They called it C#m9 because they added a F#, or the 9 in E major. This name is confusing because the 9 does not relate to C#, but E.

They distinguished between C#m and E13 with E13 having both the B and C# on adjacent strings and the C#m just having C# on top and not B. Many people question why not call C#m an E13 and I think it's just this distinction of B and C# together or not.
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Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

C#min low bass came before the high bass version with the D string. While really an E6th, this tuning actually can “correctly” be called C#min:
E
C#
G#
E
B
E

By that time in the early-mid 30s, A high-bass had practically became the standard by top players:
E
C#
A
E
C#
A

Around that time, E7th became hugely popular as well, with some like Dick McIntire using a low bass version (which makes sense becaude his F#9th was a low bass tuning).
E
B
G#
D
B
E

But others like Alveno Rey, Roger Filberto, and Roy Smeck used a version using the same string gauges as A high bass.
E
B
G#
E
D
B

Someone must have tuned to C#minor from that E7th and discovered that not lowering the D to C# sounded better and yielded a new, beautiful tuning.

There must have been some confusiom coming from a 7th tuning, to a C#m tuning and the names were combined to be “C#m7th”
E
C#
G#
E
D
B

Eddie Alkire used and taught this as the “best” tuning before inventing the E-harp tuning.
He must of realized the naming discrepancy; he called it “E13th (Combining C# minor with E7th)”

Of the tuning he said:
“It is the tuning which nearly all professional and advanced players eventually adopt and feature. This latest most modern tuning combined many of the good features of all tunings

Five of the strings 65431 correspond with E7th
Four of the strings 4321 correspond with C#minor
Three of the strings 421 correspond with A major

Thus the range of Harmonies is considerably greater.
Such frequently used chords as Minor, Major, Minor added 6th, Major added 6th, Dom. 13th, Dom. 9th, Dom. 7th, Dom. 7th aug. are playable in the E13th tuning.

Whether you are studying as a hobby, for a teaching career, for solo work, or an orchestra job, you will want to concentrate on this Tuning.

Note to E7th Players: You can easily tune to E13th.
Sound a harmonic on the G# third string at 5, Raise the B 2nd string (one tone to C#) until a harmonic at 12 is in unison.

YOU WILL ENJOY THE ADDED HARMONIC POSSIBILITIES!”

——————

Some other advantages that weren’t mentioned:

1. minor and major thirds are playable on the top 2 strings with only forward slants (unlike C6th which requires backwards slants)

2. minor and major sixths are playable on strings 1 and 3 only going up one fret on the top string (unlike A tunings which need a two fret span)

3. forward slant on strings 5 4 and 3 gives you the root on top major triad from E7th, and makes the high B string less necessary (adding that B string also messes up the Paradise Isle 9th chord forward slant on the top 3 strings)

4. split forward slant on those same strings 5 4 and 3 give you the root position minor triad like the top 3 of C6th.

5. forward slant on bottom 3 strings gives you a root position major. If you combine that with the previous slant (so a split forward slant on the bottom 4) you get a rare root position major 7th.

I think the tuning may scare people off because like C6th, when you try it for the first time all you hear is 6th chord Hawaiian stuff (which is great but not always what you may want)

But like C6th the tuning is more versatile than it seems. Here are two versions of a similar ending:

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Aaron Brownwood · From: San Diego, Ca

I hadn't seen someone describe it the way I did so thought others would benefit too! I have seen all the related posts over the decades and I wanted to help future Steelers looking for this answer.

It was called C#m because until then, you didn't have a minor triad with a straight bar. It was a big deal at the time, so people were absolutely thinking about the tuning in terms of a minor chord. The whole point of the tuning was to get a minor chord. It wasn't used as a 6th chord primarily and so the name C#m makes more sense.
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Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Aaron Brownwood · From: San Diego, Ca

Thanks Tim, I appreciate your replies. I had an AH Ha moment finally and wanted to share in case it helped others. Been playing PSG for a long time but just started 8 string lap steel and going through many tunings. It's a rabbit hole and it's so fun. You're right that minor triad screams old school jazzy Hawaiian.

As far as practical use of the E13 tunings, it's hard for me because I can't also retune that neck to another tuning, having the B and C# together makes other E tunings impossible I think? Correct me if wrong. But I like to play C#m and E7 just by changing the C# down to B. This is where the A pedal on PSG comes from essentially. Retuning E7 to C#m.
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