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Topic: Bird's Visa |
Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2024 7:52 am |
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A couple years ago I got interested in pedal steel so I acquired one and I like dabbling with it, but for the life of me, I can't seem to be able to play bebop on it! I couldn't do it if I were held at gunpoint! đ
But so many guys can. I don't know how they do it. I asked a super good pedal player if he would kindly demonstrate the Charlie Parker tune "Visa" for me. It's a simple head over a Bb blues chord progression. (As simple as bebop gets)
He explained that it takes quite a long time to work those things out on pedals and he was too busy to do it.
I tried it on the PSG and got frustrated.
So I played it on the lap steel. 8 string tuned to G6. EGBDEGBD low to high.
https://youtu.be/PsZ7bCI8B5M?si=jfuQvBogbdDFcP2b |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2024 8:01 am
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This interview with Paul Franklin is pure gold. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbFshOGoF4s
He touches on a lot of subjects, but he goes into detail about how he learned to play Jazz. He talks about the triadic and intervallic approaches to soloing as well as thinking in chords. Most people just assume you have to memorize an encyclopedia of scales.
If you watch people like Richard Nelson take solos, he doesn't use the pedals much at all. He seems to use the LKL and RKR a lot though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEjMlj5iRI
I think the pedals are useful in soloing for extended arpeggios and forming straight bar triads, but mostly it is in the basic tuning, as you have proven! In some ways not using pedals is superior, because it streamlines all your movements. That said, I love my pedals! |
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2024 5:04 am
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I dislike that approach.
If I'm thinking intervals, I'm chasing the chords around.
I've always, without realizing it, learned how to improvise based on the major or minor scale scale of any chord then built on it by later adding on the upper intervals, leading tones etc.
The way Paul is teaching, I would be able to find the note he just played but could never get a picture of how things are built.
I'd end up, as I have in the past with a lot of parts but not exactly knowing where or how to put these parts into place. The end result would be lots of short disjointed phrases.
Moreover, if I were to study, I'd study with a guitar or piano player.
https://youtu.be/W6jIpP2dF_E?si=tcMrHQenjReduAaS |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2024 6:40 am
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| Rich Arnold wrote: |
I dislike that approach.
If I'm thinking intervals, I'm chasing the chords around.
I've always, without realizing it, learned how to improvise based on the major or minor scale scale of any chord then built on it by later adding on the upper intervals, leading tones etc.
The way Paul is teaching, I would be able to find the note he just played but could never get a picture of how things are built.
I'd end up, as I have in the past with a lot of parts but not exactly knowing where or how to put these parts into place. The end result would be lots of short disjointed phrases.
Moreover, if I were to study, I'd study with a guitar or piano player.
https://youtu.be/W6jIpP2dF_E?si=tcMrHQenjReduAaS |
In the end we all have to find what works for us. I am still looking for mine! If you didn't see this,  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gh6Ft4xxIU |
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2025 9:30 pm
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Well, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the Emmons style is just not in the same orbit with my approach to the steel guitar. It's very unnatural for me to say the least. I've been accused of sounding like Emmons on my lap but that's pretty far fetched and I don't hear it at all. Or as my GenZ daughters would say "That's a strange flex" đ
I've really been unable to pull a good sound from the C6 neck while playing single note passages. Cordially it sounds great though and yesterday I thought about developing a cordal approach to improvising not unlike Chalker, but probably never reaching his skill level in my lifetime.
I've entertained the thought of tuning the C6 neck to a G6 so I can play single note stuff and bebop heads but since I have 2 other guitars with a G6 I've been mighty slow to actually string it up that way.
On the E9 side. I can't stay interested in it long enough to learn anything and have my outside neck currently tuned to the Alkire tuning.
That's the story so far.
I'm setting up in bed with insomnia and my reading glasses are in the living room so please excuse my bad typing. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2025 12:19 am
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I just spent an hour of being humbled, entertained, and educated by 3 brilliant musicians - Paul Franklin (The Master), Doug Jernigan (totally blew me away), and Jimmy Bruno (as hilarious as he is insightful). Thank you for those links, fellers.
Last but not least, Iâll add Rich Arnold as an honorable mention to the above group.
Rich, like it or not, your improvisation sounds like the intervallic/triadic approach of which Paul Franklin speaks. Itâs all derived from those major and minor scales, as Jimmy Brunoâs lesson demonstrated, but the chord tones create the melodic sense while notes outside the chord always seem to be leading toward one. During his solo when Jimmy said âToo many outside notes! Why too many? Because I didnât like it!â, I cracked up. Thatâs the kind of teacher I always wanted.
You also are very rhythmically and dynamically expressive, Rich - two oft-underrated aspects of a good solo. Thanks for posting another great tune. |
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2025 10:01 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
I just spent an hour of being humbled, entertained, and educated by 3 brilliant musicians - Paul Franklin (The Master), Doug Jernigan (totally blew me away), and Jimmy Bruno (as hilarious as he is insightful). Thank you for those links, fellers.
Last but not least, Iâll add Rich Arnold as an honorable mention to the above group.
Rich, like it or not, your improvisation sounds like the intervallic/triadic approach of which Paul Franklin speaks. Itâs all derived from those major and minor scales, as Jimmy Brunoâs lesson demonstrated, but the chord tones create the melodic sense while notes outside the chord always seem to be leading toward one. During his solo when Jimmy said âToo many outside notes! Why too many? Because I didnât like it!â, I cracked up. Thatâs the kind of teacher I always wanted.
You also are very rhythmically and dynamically expressive, Rich - two oft-underrated aspects of a good solo. Thanks for posting another great tune. |
I think you are being a bit to generous. I have a lot to improve in my playing.
I think when Jimmy was talking about something he didn't like, it was his way of saying... it's not all about the mechanics, and we shouldn't forget the feeling. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2025 10:27 am
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| Quote: |
| I think when Jimmy was talking about something he didn't like, it was his way of saying... it's not all about the mechanics, and we shouldn't forget the feeling. |
Exactly. He was demonstrating an idea, and overdoing the mechanics of it took something away from the music.
Paul was talking about the same thing when he was discussing the scalar approach. Getting caught up in scale-oriented pattern playing, especially at higher tempos, is not only difficult on steel guitar, it also doesnât sound very musical.
Friends of mine and me talked about this back in the 80âs when guitar solos seemed to be turning into gymnastics exercises inside a car race. It was interesting and maybe even inspiring for us to hear what was technically possible, we supposed, but where was the music and what were the players actually saying? |
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2025 11:42 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think when Jimmy was talking about something he didn't like, it was his way of saying... it's not all about the mechanics, and we shouldn't forget the feeling. |
Exactly. He was demonstrating an idea, and overdoing the mechanics of it took something away from the music.
Paul was talking about the same thing when he was discussing the scalar approach. Getting caught up in scale-oriented pattern playing, especially at higher tempos, is not only difficult on steel guitar, it also doesnât sound very musical.
Friends of mine and me talked about this back in the 80âs when guitar solos seemed to be turning into gymnastics exercises inside a car race. It was interesting and maybe even inspiring for us to hear what was technically possible, we supposed, but where was the music and what were the players actually saying? |
I guess to each his own way.
I'm coming from Bluegrass.
So major and minor scales are sorta my operating base.
I don't like to try to play things that feel extremely uncomfortable or unnatural.
When I'm pushing on that stuff, I loose the groove and feeling and a lot of other things that are key ingredients.
I think the internet is all about virtuosity these days.
In a club pure virtuosity doesn't work out well for me. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2025 12:24 pm
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Iâm coming from myxolydian country and pentatonic rock. I donât want to have to think about whatâs coming next, I need to know, so I can just play. Jazz is definitely not my tribe, but as I have gotten older the pull toward it has grown.
I like Paulâs borrowed concept of reducing everything to either minor or major. When I applied that to a standard like All Things You Are, suddenly I found myself playing through a bunch of 1-4-5 and 4-5-1 progressions and not even thinking about minor chords. I could even twang it if I wanted to. Probably not âjazzâ to some people, but tough. Thatâs how I do it. |
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 10 Jan 2025 11:28 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think when Jimmy was talking about something he didn't like, it was his way of saying... it's not all about the mechanics, and we shouldn't forget the feeling. |
Exactly. He was demonstrating an idea, and overdoing the mechanics of it took something away from the music.
Paul was talking about the same thing when he was discussing the scalar approach. Getting caught up in scale-oriented pattern playing, especially at higher tempos, is not only difficult on steel guitar, it also doesnât sound very musical.
Friends of mine and me talked about this back in the 80âs when guitar solos seemed to be turning into gymnastics exercises inside a car race. It was interesting and maybe even inspiring for us to hear what was technically possible, we supposed, but where was the music and what were the players actually saying? |
I guess I'm not explaining this well.
I'll give it one more try....
When I approach a song, and let's say and some point in time the song goes to a diminished 6th,
when I'm working out how to solo over that chord, I don't stop and examine what intervals are involved in that cord.
If I were to play those notes, guess what? The piano player is on those notes as well.
I can hear and recognize when musicians are trying to play the intervals of a chord over the chord.
This invariably leads to solos with lots of short phrases and sounds like....well a "word salad" instead of flowing music.
What works over the dim 6 (I'm using that as my guinea pig) are notes that are relative to it.
Although the notes of that cord will be found in the relative scales, some are not.
It may seem like a fast and easy way just to use the intervals of the chord, it's also very stiff.
One might ask, ok, so if your not going to use the intervals of the chord, how can we determine what notes will work? Most of the time, just by experimenting as the song plays in real time.
Or if this yields no desirable results as a last resort I'll play that chord on the guitar or piano or hold the keys down on a keyboard and begin playing over the chord that I can't seem to make come out right.
After I got better at this, I began to notice scales or scale sequences that were a route through the changes.
When I first approached Jazz and Swing chord progressions, I was doing what Paul Franklin is suggesting...find all the intervals in the chord. I got noplace fast that way. With 2 chords in every bar, how would anyone ever keep up? Although knowing the intervals is important for building chords.
This is just what works for me. May not work for everyone.
There are steel players who use chords to improvise with. I don't see any way around an intervalic approach for chord playing.
I've been talking about Jazz and Swing.
But if we were to go to talk about playing Country music and fiddle tunes and intervalic approach would probably be just the ticket with the chord being 1,5,1,4,1,5,1,4...no improvising.
I hear a lot of major scales in the E9. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 10 Jan 2025 2:43 pm
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You do a much better job of explaining your approach than I could with mine. Whatever it is, itâs working for you.
The one phrase Albert Lee used in a Guitar Player magazine interview eons ago that rang the bell for me was âchord fragmentsâ. I think he said that in response to a question about the use of double-stops in his improvisational meanderings, but it also plays a large part in how his single-note lines are phrased around the double-stops. I have heard steel players use the term âharmonized scalesâ, which I think is something different than what Albert was talking about.
There are so many tools at our disposal - chord tones, scales, tonal centers, rhythm, technique - and there is no law limiting which ones we can use and when for any particular genre. Taste plays a factor, and soul, when making the decision of what to play when.
I messed around with âVisaâ today on my 12-string E9. The melody works in upper register no-pedals, and lower register in AB pedal mode. It works. Fun tune! |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Hermitage, TN
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Posted 11 Jan 2025 4:12 pm
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| Rich, your version sounds awesome! Great playing. |
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