Jazz changes for a U12

Lyn Kotuby · From: Rhode Island, USA

Hey all, I have a 7x8 U12 coming my way that will need to be stripped down and re-rodded, so I'm trying to plan out the copedent. Would love some suggestions on what to do with it, particularly to orient it towards jazz. I understand this is a lot of questions - I'd be just as glad to just hear your preferred changes on your U12.

My current copedent on a 7x7 is pretty standard (I ignore the LKLI, I can't reach it):

1. I'm already thinking of moving P7 to a lever to avoid the double-footing situations I've been coming up against - is there a particularly good or bad spot to put this in?

2. Any good changes to put on the pedal that moving P7 opens up? Only thought I have is the John Hughey reverse P6 but I don't understand it well.

3. Considering moving Emmons -> Day to move the A pedal closer to my "B6 zone" to unify the tuning more. Worth the time it'll take to re-learn my E9 muscle memory? Will I crash and burn going back to my E9 singleneck?

4. Added my RKV because I can't reach my B pedal in B6th mode, but it's felt kind of useless except for a root position dom7 chord. Am I underutilizing it or replace it with something else (what)?

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I will be naming pedals as to the standard BE D10 C6th:

If you are more inclined towards Jazz, I would suggest tuning B, C or Bb6th and have the P6 change on RKL... which now would bring P5&7 next to each other (allowing playing them together with one foot AND adding the P6-change on the lever to the mix)... that change would also be the gateway to adding an A&B pedal when engaged and thus freeing up a spot for something else.
If you are into Quartal voicings, having a whole tone drop on B6's middle Eb (C6's E) will give you all the chord-vamps Bill Evans introduced behind Mile Davis on "So What".
I both raise and lower my middle A (G# on B6th) half. I would at least want to have the lower, splittable with the P7 change.

I also lower my middle G string a whole tone.
Since my P6 is on RKL I have C-to-C# (B-to-C on B6th) on the pedal left to P5. P5 and that pedal work extremely well together and hat really opens the neck up to playing same grips up and down seamlessly.

That's about the core of added change I feel I can do pretty much anything from Swing to Jazz into Neo-Soul with.

... J-D.
_________________
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Lyn Kotuby · From: Rhode Island, USA

Thanks for the detailed suggestions JD, you've given me a ton to think about. P6 on a lever is a revelation, I'll definitely be doing that.

I just realized that moving to a 3 raise/3 lower changer is forcing me to eliminate a 5th string raise. Considering dumping the C# raise on my C pedal or dropping the C pedal entirely, I use P7 and the C-to-C# (B6th B-to-C) that you suggested moving next to P5 a lot more.

I do use quartal voicings all the time, so I really appreciate the suggestion. Will think about where I can fit that change in. What do you use the lower on your middle G for?

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

I would suggest moving your p6 to RKL.
And instead of your P7, put a whole step raise on string 6, G# to A# on a pedal 0 next to your A pedal.

Lyn Kotuby · From: Rhode Island, USA

Hey Earnest, thanks for the suggestion - being able to eliminate P7 with a G#->A# + A pedal would definitely solve my changer overload issue. I think I'd miss being able to combine P7 with P5 though, I use the two together for melodies and some voicings (13th-shape chords) pretty frequently. Or do you find it natural to double-foot that combo?

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Look at strings 2-11 as the core 10 strings of a typical C6th with the exception of a D on the bottom instead of the usual C.

The thinking is that D is to F what A is to C... it's relative minor.
Likewise, Bb is to F what F is to C... it's fourth

One can spin that further and think of the low Bb as the relative minor which would follow using the same logic... Gm

From a 10 string tuning's 7th sting on down, its all just "root trackers" as Maurice Anderson would call them.

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Lyn Kotuby · From: Rhode Island, USA

JD, I'm very grateful for your explanation and snapshot of your copedent. Taking inspiration and heavily considering switching my tuning to be based around B6th instead of using E9th as a core, since I use the 6th "mode" chords and tones 90% of the time.

I'm thinking of starting it with a G (F#) on top and retaining the B root and E9 A/B pedals for now since I've burned myself from shifting my tuning too much at once before. It'd be great to use half-stops instead of consecutive levers for the E->F but I haven't met a half stop I've trusted yet. I still have an open pedal that I'm going to have to think about how to fill in:

I'm going back and forth between this and the same thing but with the high G# at string 3 retained and everything shifted down by 1 string. Worried about those lower notes getting lost in the mix with the bass, organ etc.

I use an RKV too, I'm just content with stepping off the volume pedal a lot Smile

I haven't seen your offset LKV setup before, very slick.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

A G on top is desirable because of the 5th on the 7th string rooted Major.
But it’s thin conpared to the rest of the tuning. Jerry Byrd dropped it for that reason and after discussing the reasoning behind Maurice’s Bb6th I feel that that thinness was also a calculation, especially with A6th players, even though Maurice had an even higher G-string on top of his 5th… the 6th degree.
Keep in mind tgat A6th with a 5th on top and JB’s C6th with the M3rd on too became popular long before someone added an “inside-out” string, D in the case of C6th.
That D is VERY useful out there right after E, not just for chords but single note improvisation and helps witg speed and thus musical dexterity… having a G aluenate it further ma proove to diminish the later advantage (speed and fluency), yet Maurice had both, the high G AND the D on his S12 lapsteel, as he relied on that 5th on top from Decades hacing it. So, the previos is my concern.

My journey from E9th Universal to B, then C6th to moving the P5 change came from a) having lost interest in E9th as a primary tuning with a “basic” B6th setup dependent upon the E tuning and my initial intent to invert into B6th based to E9th Uni. I felt that if I could hold the P5-change I would have enough of E9th to those sounds, and thus I put it on RKL. With that I did not take anything away from B6th and essentialy saved a change which is redundant on a typical Universal, a change I could use for sonething else. Well evidently it freed up the double footing issue related to playing P5 with P7 and also simplified adding the P6 change to the mix.
I had already dumpedthe E9th C-Pedal and thus ran A, B, P5, P7, P8.
I then stripped the tuning of an F or Eb lever. Except for my pedal re-arragement, I found that my setup resembled an early C6th tuning John Hughey had in his early years with a top strings only BudIsaacks pedal running on FMajor9th.
The problem to me today with the Universal is TUNING.
E9th lends itself to almost perfect JI tuning. A basic E9th in the style of Lloyd Green’s will encounter only few “deals” with Ji, most prominently with the E-to-F lever being tuned on a JI 11 cents flattened A-pedaled root to create it’s M3rd… also flat 11cents.
C6th, once it had pedals will have stack if issues or limitations with JI. In my opinion, a pedaled 6th tuning with a “Jazz”-setup, will need to be tuned close to ET not to totally mess up some amazing combinations. And if you look at my, I’d say a bit over the top, setup… it’s all about bit just having more changes in one neck than most Universals, but about being able to COMBINE.

So, I don’t recommend my tuning and it’s the first time I make it public. I am not seeing to create a following. I feel that Johnny Cox’s idea is much mire intersting to a broad oublic as an alternative of having either “THE” two tunings or a combination of both as per Msurice Anderso and Jeff Newman.
I just felt that for some it can give some ideas and explain a little what I am talking about.

By the way, I have just intalled that setup on a 80’s MSA “The Universal”, a lat gen guitar with the tripple raise and tripple lower changer and she’s been patient with me and now very rewarding to play. Evidently I had to invent and fabricate some hardware and I did some mods and upgrades.

An apology in advance, I am typing this on my cell phone on a beach somewhere in the Caribean, in between girl watching and the small keys on the darn thang, I expect above text to be stuck full riddled witht tyuirepguoes. Very Happy

… JD
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

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