push pull 6th string raise issue

Dave Campbell · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

i've been having an issue that is occuring more and more frequently on my emmons push pull; sometimes when i raise my 6th string with my b pedal, it won't raise all the way, and comes out a bit flat. if i release it and press the pedal again it raises all the way. it went from happening very infrequently to an unhealthy frequency. it needs to be fixed!

it's not happening on the third string at all. my theory is that the shock spring at the bellcrank on the 6th string is not working properly anymore. maybe it's rotating in a funny way so that sometimes its full length isn't being applied. does this sound plausible?

if that is the issue, what is the appropriate spring length and type? where would somebody get this part if they lived in the great state of canada?

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

This would be good place to start. Also check the rollers at the tuning head, grooves in the finger, lube the changer, lube the pedal at the pedal rack cross bar.
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'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.

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Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Dave,

I agree with Larry and would like to add to what he said.

In my experience, Emmons push-pulls are normally very stable--if the initial adjustments were done correctly, and they are maintained properly.

The last time I had a purely mechanical problem with mine was about 20 years ago when one of the screws holding a rod collar in place loosened up very slightly, and the string wouldn't come up to pitch. It took less than 2 seconds to re-tighten the screw and fix the problem--once I identified the problem! Smile

You need to use the process of elimination to identify the problem...
I would suggest to first try moving the the 6th string raise finger by hand (not the pedal) and see if it comes up to pitch when it contacts the body of the guitar. If it doesn't, you need to figure out what is wrong with the changer--such as a broken-off ball-end of a string stuck inside it. If it does, you have most likely eliminated the changer as the culprit.

The next thing to check is to turn the guitar upside down and actuate the 6th string with the pedal while checking the under-carriage at each point from the changer all the way to the pedal stop on the pedal raising the 6th string.

If the mechanical train on the underside seems to be working, I would suggest the next suspect would be the roller-nuts. If the roller-nuts haven't been cleaned and lubricated properly, the force exerted by a returning 6th string is tiny--it can't overcome lack of lubrication of the roller-nuts and the axle that supports them.

The tiny force exerted by a returning 6th string also cannot overcome the wrong lubricant being used on the roller-nuts--such as the "Tri-Flow Superior Dry Lubricant" or similar lubricants sold in bike shops with wax added to them to protect bike chains from mud and rain. ("Tri-Flow Superior Lubricant" is fine.)
The roller-nuts on an Emmons guitar have only about a 3-thousandths of an inch of side-to-side free play, and the wax will definitely gum them up and keep strings from returning to pitch. (The wax is also quite difficult to remove from the roller-nut assembly.)

There are some more tips on the push-pull "sticky" at https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=205028&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25

Every Emmons push-pull owner should have a copy of Clem Schmitz's "Methodology And Practice In Pedal Steel Guitar" and DVD (only $20 for both). I have only needed it once in the last 20 years--but it saved my butt!

-Dave

Dave Campbell · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

thanks guys.

i've checked all the above mentioned items.

everything is moving right 99% of the time, and i can't seem to reproduce the 1% while the guitar is on the bench.

the shock spring before that collar seems to be a bit distorted. i'm going to try swapping a spring from another change onto there and see if that helps.

ideally, i'd just replace that spring with a new one. i'm not sure where to get one, or what type of spring.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

It could be the shock spring but to me sounds like your pedal stop screw hitting too soon also. Back it out about one or 2 turns. Those are for pedal feel only and should have nothing to do with tuning like an all pull guitar.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

All good advice above, but I'm guessing your initial thought is likely on the right track. Does the shock spring on 6 compress fully when the pedal is engaged? It sounds to me like the solution to your problem might be simply shifting/tightening the collar on 6 a bit so it hits the shock spring sooner and compresses it a bit more when engaged. From your description it sounds like the changer is tuned correctly, but the rod on 6 is just not pulling the finger fully against the stop every time. A weak or under-compressed shock spring would do just that. That's not say there isn't some other secondary issue in the changer or elsewhere, but that's a 10 second adjustment, and the first thing I would try. Make sure the bell crank is nice and tight too.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

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