Advice on selling an MSA Millennium

William McBride · From: Arizona, USA

My Dad passed away last year and I now own his MSA Millennium pedal steel. Dad said that it was the carbon fiber version and valuable because they don't make the carbon fiber version anymore. It was in his house and never travelled so is in excellent shape. I also have the Webb amplifier that goes with it and all sorts of additional gadgets like tuners and slides. Dad got the amplifier rebuilt by the Webb factory just before they quit rebuilding amplifiers, so it is in like-new shape.

Can anyone tell me what this guitar/amp combo is worth? I need to sell it. Is it best to sell the amp with it? I remember Dad saying that the Webb amp was the "only" amp to use with the guitar - I'm not sure why, but he insisted that they were a pair. Maybe someone can clue me in?

I also have a huge box full of books, tapes, records, CDs, and DVDs on how to play pedal steel. I don't know if they are of any use to anyone. I could post them separately.

Thanks in advance for any advice. I would really like the guitar to go to someone who will play it and enjoy it.

Also, let me know if any additional pictures will help.

Bill

William McBride · From: Arizona, USA

Forgot to add...
I'm in Tucson, Arizona.

Joe Bill Moad · From: Oklahoma

Man that’s a heck of a Carbon-Fiber guitar and has a lot of great side items with it! Package Deal! That guitar in the nearly new shape it’s in has to be worth $3000. That rebuilt Webb with a 15” speaker $1,000. All the pedals, tapes, cords, everything total I wouldn’t let it go for less than $4500. Based on the prices of other guitars and equipment on this forum.

Good Luck

Joe Bill Moad
Oklahoma
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William McBride · From: Arizona, USA

Thank you Joe Bill. I'll post another picture of all the accessories.

Jim Bloomfield · From: Colorado, USA

I would think that steel is worth quite a bit more than the $3,000 suggested. I’d guess more in the $4-5,000 range for the steel itself. These are pretty rare now and some people seek these out bc of the carbon fiber. I’d hate to see your fathers steel sold at too low of a price only to be reposted and sold here later with a much higher mark up. As a Universal 12 string player myself, I would have loved to hear your dad play this! I bet it sounds amazing.

William McBride · From: Arizona, USA

Thanks for your advice Jim. Much appreciated.

Dad played a six string every week at the local pub until he was 86 years old. He was getting pretty good with the pedal steel, but he didn't think he was quite good enough to take it into town. If he wasn't good enough, he was sure close. He practiced every day.

I've added some more pictures. Some of this is obviously for the six strings. I'm not sure exactly what all of it is, not being a pedal steel player myself. I also have his lap steel and some of these things may go with that.
The one picture shows a half a box of sheet music, mostly for pedal steel it looks like.

Joe Bill Moad · From: Oklahoma

Jim Thank You for helping on this Great guitar! I thought it would be worth more but I am not right on the market of the Carbon Fiber guitar. My apologies. I hope the young man gets all the money he can. I was afraid someone would be saying they weren’t worth as much as I said? I just chimed in trying to help the son of the Man that played the beautiful guitar.

Respectfully

Joe Bill Moad
Oklahoma
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Don’t Worry About The Mule! Load The Wagon!

Jim Bloomfield · From: Colorado, USA

Doug Taylor · From: Shelbyville, Kentucky, USA

I sent you a PM William!

William McBride · From: Arizona, USA

Jim and Joe. I appreciate the advice from both of you. An item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and who knows what that someone is willing to pay? Thank you, as I really don't know. I know the guitar is special and valuable, but not much more. My dad loved it and talked about it all the time. Whenever I visited, he would play something new he was working on. He even tried to teach me a few things, but I have a hard enough time with six strings and frets, let alone pedals and knee levers and picks on all my fingers Smile

. You pedal steel guys have my respect 100%.

Joe Bill Moad · From: Oklahoma

I hope you keep the Great Gift from your Dad! You deserve it and I just started 3.5 months ago and it’s not that hard to learn the grips and start making music.( I am still a long ways from where I want to be) You will be glad you do learn it if you go on with it. I couldn’t put a price on anything that was my dad’s. I guess a lot of people don’t think like I do but you have a lifelong treasure!

Respectfully:

Joe Bill Moad
Oklahoma
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Don’t Worry About The Mule! Load The Wagon!

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Here are my thoughts:

First, that's a "Universal 12 string" steel - U-12 for short. This is very different from a typical S-10 (10-string single neck) or a D-10 (double neck) guitar. For example, your guitar has 8 pedals and 5 levers. That's typical for U-12's and D-10's. S-10's typically only have 3 pedals and 5 levers. Just so you know what you have.

That looks like either a first generation Millennium or a second - the M-2. Most M-2's have a sticker that says that on the front - but I have an M-2, and once had an M-3, that only had the "Millennium" sticker. To know for sure, look for the serial number - it's stamped into the end plate that's at the tuning peg end of the guitar - you have to get under or turn the guitar over to see it. I've had two Millenniums:

M D 0 5 2 0 0 8 - a Millenium D-10 M-3

M D 0 4 2 0 0 6 - a Millienium D-10 M-2

And what I remember (might be wrong) is this:
The M is the model - Millennium. D is double-neck. Not sure what yours will have - U? S? the next two numbers is I think the number of that particular steel for that year - and I think it is based on the model - so my M3 was the 5th double-neck made in 2008. And the M2 was the 4th double-neck made in 06.

There might be another letter for D-12's? I don't know. And I don't know if they followed this same numbering sequence in the earlier Millennium models - mine are both fairly late in the run. So give us your serial number and we can maybe tell you more - or maybe you know when your father ordered or received the steel?

There were changes between the M-1 and the M-2 that are not visually apparent, but supposedly pretty significant. One that is easy to spot, but I can't quite tell from your photos, is the changer - looking in the opening in the endplate to the changer, are there 6 or 7 holes to hold the pull rods? I think it looks like only 6 - if so, that indicates a first gen Millie. Somewhere in the forum is a discussion on Millies were I ask Johnny Cox, who use to work at MSA, and is back there now I think, about the changes made with the different generations. You can search for either my profile for all posts, or Johnny's, and should find it. Maybe search for "johnny" and with me as the author?

As for the ultimate amp to use - I find steeler's amp fashions change faster than those for steel guitar models. So opinions have moved on, but there are definite fans of Webb amps on the forum.

I'm guessing that the two bent metal things with the black plastic clips on them hold the "tab rack" - you put the clips onto the front legs (the side with the "Millennium" sticker and you have a music rack.

My advise would be to offer the steel and amp separately as the dual package might appeal to some, but not all. And shipping amps is expensive. Separating them makes the shipping better. If someone wants both, you could offer a slight discount if they buy the "full package".

All the other stuff is probably better to sell separately - DVD's and cassettes aren't worth much for the obvious reason. Stand-alone books are worth a little.

The biggest piece of advise I can give you is to be patient. There are steels that are very popular, and sell very quickly. The Millies are not that. They are highly respected, and have a strong group of fans who would not trade their Millie for anything currently on the market (count me as one). There are a lot of people who do not "get" the Millie - the benefits of carbon construction, for example. I live in the tropics, and love the stability of the carbon body. So decide on a decent price and then don't get talked into a cheap sale just to hurry the process.

Finding the right price, though, is not so easy. There is a definite premium paid for each newer generation of the Millies. Many only want an M3, but probably could not tell you what the differences are. There are other guitars with comparable mechanics (I've owned a couple of Zumsteels and would rate them equal to the Millie in the mechanical dept). But there is no other pedal steel with the carbon bodies. Look at carbon fiber guitars and violins - they are highly regarded and rather pricey. I would suggest looking at prices being asked for Universal 12-string steels built since about 2000 for a guideline. That's probably about when yours was made. Certain brands become very popular (translate that as expensive), like Zumsteels and Infinity. Zumsteel guitars shot way up in price soon after Bruce stopped making them. Before that, they were priced about the same as any similar quality used steel.

Current price for an MSA Studio Pro S-12, 8x5 is $5995. The Studio Pro is basically a wood version of the Millie. There have no doubt been a few changes over the years - I think the Studio Pro, and all other current MSA's use a 24 1/4" scale length vs. the 24" of Millie's and older MSA's. Also the Studio Pro will have newer changer designs, which date from the M-2, I think.

That's my take on it, anyway. I hope it helps. Good luck with the sale.

EDIT: I searched for the thread with Johnny C I mentioned, and had forgotten that I started a separate thread and copied the info over to carry that discussion on. Here's the thread:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=386061
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Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

I think this is a second generation Milennium. The first generation had changer fingers that were the same style as the Williams changer fingers.
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JCH SD-10 with BL XR-16 pickup, Sho-Bud Volume Pedal, Evidence Audio Lyric HG cables, Quilter Steelaire combo

William McBride · From: Arizona, USA

Doug - thank you so much for all the info.
I snooped around under the guitar and found the serial number. It is MS043001.

William McBride · From: Arizona, USA

Doug and Marco,

Again, thanks for helping me figure this all out. My wife says that I need to learn another instrument about as much as I need another hole in my head, but I'm seriously tempted to keep this thing. Practical me says "you have enough hobbies". But man, this is such a beautiful instrument. I'm sure you all understand.

As far as I can tell, as someone who doesn't know what I am talking about, there are 30 push rods, not 6 or 7. I am assuming the push rods are the rods underneath that are not the pedal rods. I have a funny feeling I'm about to be educated which is fine.

The pictures show the serial number on the end with the tuning pegs.

The two metal things do hold the very wide music tray. You can see the tray in previous pictures - it is about the same length as the guitar. My dad spread out a bunch of sheet music onto the tray (music stand?) so he could practice without having to turn pages.

Here are more detailed pictures of the under side.

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Aha! So that photo of the tuning nuts tells the tale - it is indeed a M-2 model. Each string has 4 holes available on the changer to raise that strings, and 3 to lower. IMO, being an M-2 really helps the price you can get and how easy it is to sell. I've owned an M-3, and currently own an M-2, and as for playing them and how they sounded, they were the same IMO. I like the all-alloy pedalboard better than the carbon-enclosed one, but that is minor.

The guitar looks very clean underneath - I'm going to be breaking mine down over the holidays for some deep cleaning - not a job I look forward to. So clean matters!

Serial number - well, I'm pretty sure 3001 is not the year of build.Haha! so maybe only the last two numbers indicate year? But I could be wrong about that, and I can't find where I got that info.

If I were going to sell it, I'd probably figure a price at or just under $4000 and see. You could go a little lower if you wanted to sell it faster. That's steel only - others will have to tell you about the amp and other gear. But no matter the price, it might not jump - as I say, be patient. That price is based on what I see other Uni 12's going for on the forum, but admit I have not payed that close of attention since I don't play Universal.

Again, good luck!
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Alan Cook · From: Kent,England

I paid £3000.0 ($3900.0 approximately) for my Millennium earlier this year although I was told a buyer from the US did offer $5000 but fortunately for me the seller didn’t want to ship. Here is a video of me playing it:

https://youtu.be/mCxK9vrLyHM?si=KWY_VZBaqVC426a1

Alan.

Paul Awalt · From: Greenwich, Ct.

Tempted to keep..........you'll never get another one like that and you can pass it down proudly to the next generation. It won't go out of style or function and it will appreciate in value over time. I can't imagine what it would cost to build it today.

Johnny Cox · Posted 13 Dec 2024 5:03 am

Hey Bill, that's a very nice M2. The only difference between an M2 and M3 (the last generation of Millennium) is the M3 had a 24 1/4" scale length where as the M2 is 24" scale. Also the M3 had an all aluminum pedal bar and knee levers. Mechanically the M2 is identical to M3. I personally built that guitar, not sure of the year though. I could tell you exactly if you send me the serial number. I have one of those myself and love it and I am buying another from a friend. And as everyone has stated, they are no longer built. It's worth what someone is willing to pay, but market value is probably between $4,000 and $4,500 for the guitar alone.
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"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967.

William McBride · From: Arizona, USA

Beautiful Allen!
Thank you to all you folks for helping me with your valuable advice. I very much appreciate it. I will put it up for sale in the "for sale" forum in the next few days.
Bill

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