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Topic: A few Sinatra chord melodies (updates) |
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2024 4:36 am |
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Hey Mike,
Whenever I get asked to teach people something I've done on the steel, instead of showing them where stuff is, I try to show them how I got there.
That's what I want to know.
Instead of giving them an address, I'd rather give them map.
Most people are dissatisfied with that so I consider myself a lousy teacher.
But sometimes they thank me later.
I'd start working with triads. Moving either the root, 3rd or 5th up and down.
Explain how chords work.
Then they can build on that.
But, I'm a lousy teacher.
R. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 10 Dec 2024 6:07 am
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| David DeLoach wrote: |
Wonder how that would work on steel? |
That is a really cool feature that they added to the Boss pedal. I commend them on that!
I messed around with a lot of different techniques to do that over the years, from using bass pedals (very difficult to concentrate on playing steel and trying to get good walking bass lines simultaneously) to using a similar pitch cut-off with MIDI, but ultimately I'd rather just hire a bassist.  It detracts too much from the steel playing. Even though what I am doing here is basically plain vanilla arranging, adding in bass a la Charlie Hunter would complicate things in such a way that would ruin the flow. But I used to use a C13 tuning that had a low C, so that definitely made me explore that a bit more. These days my lowest string is a G, so I mostly use it to get the inversions i need.
Rich, I get what you're saying. I do a little teaching and sometimes it covers this style of playing. I think that in order to make it work, there are some things that need to be ground level skills, and certainly the very basics of using major, minor and diminished triads are mandatory. Learning how to incorporate and think in terms of upper extension triads takes one a long way. But there is also the importance of being able to decode a piece of sheet music. I find this to be super important for details.
Apart from all the variables, such as tunings that individuals use and technique/playing skills, I think there is a base line that can be taught--I just want to figure out how to do it without getting bogged down by all the other moving parts.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2024 8:28 am Re: A couple of Sinatra chord melodies
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
I thought of doing a workshop on constructing chord melody arrangements, but to be honest there are so many moving parts and things that factor into it, I don’t know how much I could cover in an hour or two. |
I really love what you are doing with these tunes! Can I make a completely selfish request?
An extended video walking you through the arranging process. For me the most useful thing in learning this music is just learning tunes. Every tune seems to teach me something new. I kind of have my foot in the door and have cobbled my way through a bunch of these old standards, mostly with the help of Youtube videos for piano. They walk you through the melody as it relates to the chords, then usually expand on the different choices in harmony. You have the added step of converting everything they are talking about into "Steel". For me it is pedal steel, but you are using many of the same voicings I am, just slanting instead of pedaling. Piano players have such a wealth of learning materials to choose from, in fact you can pick almost any well known standard and you can find a video of someone walking you through their arrangement process. Most of these people offer a few of these for free and if you sign up they have many more.
Just a selfish request! Thanks to you and everyone who shares their music on the forum! |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 10 Dec 2024 9:36 am
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Tim, for any kind of arranging, it’s always best if you have some functional piano or guitar skills because it is a less restricted palette than the steel guitar is. So within that broader pallette, you see all the colors available and then on steel guitar you work with the colors that you can, sometimes discovering that you have to use other combinations. It is a subtractive process. But most importantly you have to hear the tune / learn the melody and the chords and understand the harmonic map of the tune. The more you listen and learn the way harmony moves, the easier it becomes to identify where a piece of music is going before it even gets there.
I love to teach like this but it is easy to go on tangents. That is where sometimes I lose people.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 10 Dec 2024 10:59 am
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Years ago I was introduced (yes, introduced, in 2018 or so...somehow I had never heard the song before!) to the song "Witchcraft" by this improvised video Basil Henriques did with his Fender 1000 and his A7 copedent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXbz6b44GWY
I bought a 400, set it up in his copedent, but I've mostly failed at my attempt to learn to get my feet to do what need to do, hah. At one point I could play the intro and some of the song the way he does it, but at like 20% speed. So I really like what you're doing with your nonpedal version. You said you used to use JAS C13, what tuning are you in now? Same C13 but G instead of C on the lowest string?
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Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 11 Dec 2024 5:06 am
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Thanks for that Andy...I'm not a country music guy, so I was never particularly predisposed to love pedal steel, but pedal steel jazz is one of the coolest things around, and I'd never heard that version. I may have to grab that album!
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Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2024 7:45 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
But most importantly you have to hear the tune / learn the melody and the chords and understand the harmonic map of the tune. The more you listen and learn the way harmony moves, the easier it becomes to identify where a piece of music is going before it even gets there.
I love to teach like this but it is easy to go on tangents. That is where sometimes I lose people. |
This has been an arduous but exciting process for me. I am self taught, my grasp on theory is sketchy, my technique is a bit shady, and my approach is completely ADHD. For years I wanted to learn some of these old standards and every attempt I made to get further in them was frustrating and I would ultimately give up and go back to more familiar territory. My venture into steel guitar has been mostly inspired by my love of these old tunes and wanting to find a way to play them. It really forced me into learning how to manage more complex harmony and I definitely see the standard guitar in a completely different way now. I think also realize why I was having so much trouble trying to learn them on guitar vs steel guitar. Managing voice leading is so much easier on steel!
I am not even close to being where I want to be as a musician, but it is exciting when these tunes start to make sense, at least sort of.
Tangents, I think I know what you mean.
| Quote: |
| I bought a 400, set it up in his copedent, but I've mostly failed at my attempt to learn to get my feet to do what need to do, hah. At one point I could play the intro and some of the song the way he does it, but at like 20% speed. So I really like what you're doing with your nonpedal version. You said you used to use JAS C13, what tuning are you in now? Same C13 but G instead of C on the lowest string? |
Nic I didn't realize you had done this. That is so cool! Do you still have the guitar? My tuning is similar to Basil's. A while ago I posted on the pedal forum looking for anyone who had tried his copedant and no-one responded. Using a copedant that requires a lot of footwork becomes an exercise in frustration if you try to use the pedals for everything. You can only do so much, especially on faster tunes. Pedals really shine on ballads and it is fun to get the melody moving over the harmony in ways not possible on non pedal steel. |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 11 Dec 2024 9:48 am
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
Nic I didn't realize you had done this. That is so cool! Do you still have the guitar? My tuning is similar to Basil's. A while ago I posted on the pedal forum looking for anyone who had tried his copedant and no-one responded. Using a copedant that requires a lot of footwork becomes an exercise in frustration if you try to use the pedals for everything. You can only do so much, especially on faster tunes. Pedals really shine on ballads and it is fun to get the melody moving over the harmony in ways not possible on non pedal steel. |
Yes, still got it! Although its cased up. It needs a bit of work (pickup seems to partly short out when moved, probably needs a rewind) and my attempts to add pedals, well, I got it up to six pedals but they don't always work so great. No knee levers which I can't even imagine adding, lol. Footwork is enough. I was mostly inspired by Basil's version of Sweet Leilani. I also started to work out a version of a C6 copedent, kind of guessing at what Jules Ah See might have used in the late 50s. It was a fun exercise for sure. I think the A7 copedent was a little too active for me as a beginner, and if I start with a C6 based copedent that I can play as is, and just use the pedals to get new a few new things (eg taking the 2nd and 3rd strings up a step to get that maj9 sound, I've heard that a lot) I would have better luck.
Someday I'll get it out and try again!
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Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Will Helton
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 20 Dec 2024 12:55 am Re: A couple of Sinatra chord melodies
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
Tackling some music out of the Sinatra songbook lately. This is music I used to sing with a great band years ago, but just trying to come up with chord melody arrangements in an hour. It’s a healthy challenge.
Witchcraft
https://youtu.be/DLCgz16Y13s?si=jNWzWONlF8zPpvaB
You Brought A New Kind Of Love To Me
https://youtu.be/wl56CCTkLss?si=4GphCt1QsPQUziN1
I thought of doing a workshop on constructing chord melody arrangements, but to be honest there are so many moving parts and things that factor into it, I don’t know how much I could cover in an hour or two. |
Wow, Mike! That's some really great playing!
What slide did you use?
Cheers,
will
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1956 Fender Dual 6, Epiphone Electar (reissue), Recording King dobro, Duesenberg Split King lap steel |
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Bill Fisher
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2024 3:09 am
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Mike, go ahead and do that to all of Franks songs. I'll listen to every one of them. I love that. Many thanks,
Bill Fisher. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2024 10:38 am
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| Rich Arnold wrote: |
Hey Mike,
Whenever I get asked to teach people something I've done on the steel, instead of showing them where stuff is, I try to show them how I got there.
That's what I want to know.
Instead of giving them an address, I'd rather give them map.
Most people are dissatisfied with that so I consider myself a lousy teacher.
But sometimes they thank me later.
I'd start working with triads. Moving either the root, 3rd or 5th up and down.
Explain how chords work.
Then they can build on that.
But, I'm a lousy teacher.
R. |
I am exactly the same kind of lousy teacher. People came to me wanting to play in the Super Bowl, like tomorrow if not sooner. I started them on calisthenics. Man, what a lousy teacher.
Mike. Your usual awesome stuff. A video of that particular hour-long recording session, without any talking or explanation, would reveal one thing for sure - that this is how somebody with a real passion for the process actually works. Filling in the blanks is a lifetime of work and study, and we get to see the fun part. |
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Ron Funk
From:
Ballwin, Missouri
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Posted 23 Dec 2024 10:55 pm
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Absolutely fantastic
One thing I always got a kick out of while listening ( or watching ) ‘the big bands’ backing a singer, were the instrumental fills the band used.
The horns really had it going ‘back in the day’
Would be great to learn how to do those types of fills on steel
Any suggestions? |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 5 Jan 2025 3:11 pm
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I’ve just begun adding new arrangement in the top post, from newest to oldest. Will keep going until I don’t feel like anymore.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Roland Sturm
From:
Santa Monica, CA
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Posted 5 Jan 2025 6:37 pm
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| Great arrangement of Fly Me to the Moon. It came up recently at a jam and I have tried to add a few harmony notes. Now, your version kicks it into a different league, those possibilities hadn't remotely occurred to me. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 8 Jan 2025 5:23 am
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Added “Come Fly With Me” this morning. This was a challenge!
Coincidentally, I studied jazz guitar for a few months with Sammy Cahn’s son, Steve Khan, way back in the mid-1980s.
https://youtu.be/2iNrHlrYmt8?si=aLrFDruxndEYjaqb
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2025 6:38 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
Added “Come Fly With Me” this morning. This was a challenge!
Coincidentally, I studied jazz guitar for a few months with Sammy Cahn’s son, Steve Khan, way back in the mid-1980s.
https://youtu.be/2iNrHlrYmt8?si=aLrFDruxndEYjaqb |
I think folks could learn a ton from studying these arrangements. I don't know If I could pull these off in 60 years let alone 60 minutes. I notice you do a lot of backwards slants. I really love the turnaround that starts at :27. Very smooth! |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 8 Jan 2025 7:02 am
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
I think folks could learn a ton from studying these arrangements. I don't know If I could pull these off in 60 years let alone 60 minutes. I notice you do a lot of backwards slants. I really love the turnaround that starts at :27. Very smooth! |
I guess one of the things that constitutes a "style" when you are thinking in terms of a musician is that they have a lot of go-to moves or sounds/licks that they rely on. It's really kind of the same thing here--I think most of my chord melody arrangements at this point in time are based on some basic chord shapes that I have found hiding out in C6. It just depends on what the melodic note is in relation to the harmony. I consider these to be basic arrangements that don't stray very far from the recordings or sheet music. Occasionally, I'll put a little something in there, like that little Monk thing in the second verse.
But ultimately, I don't know if these arrangements are any good or whether this style of playing is conducive to steel guitar--I'm just doing what I feel like I want to be playing. A lot of this music was a part of my past as a guitarist/vocalist, so I have a connection with it on some level. I have heard recordings of players like Joaquin Murphey playing in a chordal style on their pedal guitars and like that a lot, I'm just trying to figure out how I want to do it. And I tend to like the lower range of the instrument rather than the treble strings. In fact, I don't even use the high E string much. I definitely could never get with the high G string. I'd rather build up from the bottom.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2025 8:12 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| Tim Toberer wrote: |
I think folks could learn a ton from studying these arrangements. I don't know If I could pull these off in 60 years let alone 60 minutes. I notice you do a lot of backwards slants. I really love the turnaround that starts at :27. Very smooth! |
Occasionally, I'll put a little something in there, like that little Monk thing in the second verse.
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I knew I recognized that. I think it is a popular move to steal.
You mention Joaquin Murphey. I finally found these recordings and went ga-ga! This stuff is jaw dropping!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8GH_-9i_CE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ttt2ONEBE
This is pedal steel obviously, but I think it is weird that not many on the pedal steel side seem to know, (or care much?) of this stuff. It seems to be kind of lost in the grey area. Steel guitar jazz will always seem to live in some kind of no man's land. I don't care though, this is where I want to live. |
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2025 7:18 pm
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
It seems to be kind of lost in the grey area. Steel guitar jazz will always seem to live in some kind of no man's land. I don't care though, this is where I want to live. |
I totally get that statement.
I've asked myself why I continue to bust my hump trying to play this music on the steel instead of just going to the piano where it's easier?
Playing Jazz tunes and Swing on the steel something I may never win at. More than likely I'll go to my grave wondering if anything I did was good or not.
I wouldn't want it any other way!
I'm not sure what makes us tick. |
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