McAuliffe E13 vs Helms E13

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

Which do you prefer and why?

What is the classic repertoire for each one?

Also considering

Noel Boggs' E13 (E C# G# F# D B G# E)

Vance Terry's E13 (E C# B G# F# D B G#)

Too many to choose from!

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

A lot of people think the Don Helms E13th is not a “real” E13th, which classically are tunings with the root on top.
Helms E13th is the same intervallically as the middle 8 of a C6th pedal steel up a major third::
E
C
A
G
E
C
A
F

Leon version has a completely different sound. The Don Helms version would be “better” in the same applications C6th is for styles using mostly triads and their inversions, while the Leon version is decidedly more jazzy.
But they really are not comparable.

My favorite E13th is the Boggs version. It has such a cool atmosphere, and I love the forward slant on the top 3 strings. It does have less options than the Leon or Vance Terry versions, but in a way that is a cool creative limitation…

Vance Terry had both the Boggs version and his version on the same guitar, and it took me time to realize that even though it only seems to be one string difference, they sound so different that it isn’t really that redundant.

Do you have a favorite so far? Very Happy

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

…and not to mention there are endless variations beyond that, for instance, Billy Tonnesen used to recommend Boggs with a High G#

G#
E
C#
G#
F#
D
B
G#

Fred · From: Amesbury, MA

I prefer the McAuliffe version. Probably because it was my first E13. Some of the things I like are the minor third interval on top instead of major third. I like the repetition of the second and minor third sequence (F#, G#, B and B, C#, E). I like the low E. I miss the B in the low end that you have on some other E13's and sometimes retune the low G# to B. I like having the D6 and DM7 chords. I like that you get a lot of the 6th tuning stuff on the top but also have the dominant sounds. If I had 10 strings I would add a B in the low end as string 7 and a G# on top.

The Helms tuning isn't really an E13, it's E6. There's no b7 (D). As noted by Joe, it's a pretty common C6 tuned up to E6. It has the major 7 on the bottom which opens up a lot of possibilities, but it's a different set of possibilities than E13.

Fred

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

I think the McAuliffe/Terry tuning is more logical for single note playing, and still great for chords. Top 6 notes are in the core of Tom Morrell and Jack Richards tuning also (others?). The Boggs version has such a classic sound, denser or something, maybe better for chords. Can't go wrong either way. I think you could spend a lifetime in either one.

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

This is very helpful guys, thank you!

The SIT set of strings I got is for

G# E C# B G# E D B (high to low)

https://steelguitarshopper.com/sit-strings-scottys-e13th-nickel-semi-flat-8-string-set/

"Starting from the late 1930's and into the 40's and 50's, a wide variety of players used this tuning. Among the most famous of these being Hall Of Fame members Speedy West, Don Helms, and Little Roy Wiggins."

The gauges range from 36 to 10, so fairly high pitch.

Maybe it's not THE MAIN Helms tuning though... what is it usually called? Wiggins?

Anyhow, I should mention that this will go on a T8 Stringmaster, and I already have C6 and A6 on there, so I'm definitely looking for something different to tackle some jazz stuff.

So really, it's between the Leon and the Boggs for me. The tuning for the set I listed above doesn't have an F#, and I definitely want an F#.

Matthew Dawson · From: Portland Oregon, USA

If I’m not mistaken, the Boggs E13 is also the Jules Ah See E13. He uses it a bunch on the Tapa Room Tapes. Barney Isaacs plays it too. They both seem to use E13 for comping and hard-swinging, dissonant chord solos. Alan Akaka has a video on YouTube where he spends an hour or so demonstrating different popular tunings. Might help you make your decision!

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

8 String 13th Tunings List

Original 13th Tunings
E C# G# E D B - Old Hawaiian E13th The first E13th tuning c. 1937, often "incorrectly" called C#min7th. Evolved from the low bass E6th/C#min E C# G# E B E
E C# G# E D B G# E - 8 string version of above tuning. Beautiful vintage Hawaiian sound, and also great for older swing numbers.

Root on Top 13th Tunings
E C# B G# F# D G# E - Leon E13th, first used by Leon McAuliffe, early 40s?
E C# B G# F# D B G# - Vance Terry E13th late forum member Al Marcus said he was using this as early as 1938! Best for chords and single note playing-- if you don't need that low E string!
E C# G# F# D B G# E - Noel Boggs E13th early-mid 1940s used also by Hawaiian players like Jules Ah See and Barney Isaacs Jr.

Third on top 13th Tunings
G# E C# B G# E D B - Roy Wiggins E13th Roy Wiggins, after using a straight E tuning switched to this I believe in the later 1940s
G# E C# B G# E C# A - Don Helms E13th
E C A G E C Bb C =(G# E C# B F# E D E C) - C13th the main modern Hawaiian tuning, great for all styles
G# E C# G# F# D B G# - Billy Tonessen E13th Boggs E13th with a high G#
F# E D B A F# E C (= G# F# E C# B G# F# D) - Ray Noren D13th

7th or 9th on top 13th Tunings
Evolved from F#9th E C# G# E A# F#, which first used by players like Dick McIntire mid-late 1930s
E C# G# E A# F# d# f# (= D B F# D G# E c# e) - Speedy West F#13th D# is pitched a half step below the high E string, and the f# a whole step above the high E string
E C# G# E A# a# d# f#
G# E C# G# E a# d# f# - Billy Tonessen

13th Tunings including the 11th
E C A F D B - G13th often called G11th, first used c. 1940 Andy Iona, David Kelii, Lovey Lui Conn. Great chords, but like B11th is a little short on inversions.
G E C A F D B G (= E C# A F# D B G# E) Basically a stack of thirds. One string half step retune from Boggs E13th!

...
And my secret tunings that I have been experimenting with, a fat low B flat string on the bottom...
E C# G# F# D B G# Bb - Boggs with low Bb
E C# B F# G# D B Bb - Vance Terry with low Bb
Mr. Green

Paul Seager · From: Augsburg, Germany

From reading this thread, I now know I am using the Bogg's variant. I use it on the outside (farthest) neck on a T8. I got there because the gauges match those I use for A6 and B11, so I just order 3x each gauge.

As to repertoire, good question. My use of it is so far limited to what I call the ,"Big Band shout" effect. Take an old Swing number and very often the middle 8 will have four dom 7 chords with 4th intervals e.g., D7, G7, C7, F7. In a solo, I'll just slide up to, or play double-stops at, or vibrato the heck out of a straight by at each position! It's a great special effect and often elicits a smile from one's audience.

So far, that's my only use for it and ironically, it was inspired by Leon's Blue Guitar Stomp, the second half of the melody, the chord work behind the sax solo, is played (I believe) on his E13 neck.
_________________
\paul

Bayern Hawaiians: https://www.youtube.com/@diebayernhawaiians3062
Other stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@paulseager3796/videos

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

Joe, thank you for this very thorough list. I have a question though…

Did you try ALL OF THEM???

Paul, I’m still hesitating between the Boggs and the Leon… I went to the music store yesterday to pick up some singles and I have enough strings for either. The E13 will be the middle neck on my T8.

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

Boggs and Leon are basically the same tuning, the only difference is where in the sequence the B note is located: Lower octave in Boggs and upper octave in McAuliffe.

James Friedman · From: Ohio, USA

Does anyone know if Noel is using his E13 on Hank Penny's "The Penny Opus No. 1"?

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