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Topic: Palm blocking problem |
Greg Vincent
From:
Folsom, CA USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2024 11:56 am |
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| Noted. Although JayDee’s hand has always been quite a bit more flat than the Jeff Newman “peak knuckle” style recommends. Sure seems to work for him, though! |
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Bobby Hearn
From:
Henrietta, Tx
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Posted 17 Nov 2024 12:11 pm
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| Jay Dee’s hand is pretty flat normally, especially on fast stuff. You can go all the way back to the Buck Owens days. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2024 12:14 pm
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| Bobby Hearn wrote: |
| Jay Dee’s hand is pretty flat normally, especially on fast stuff. You can go all the way back to the Buck Owens days. |
Maybe, but not half a foot off the strings. Perhaps pick blocking is his default, like Joe Wright. Paul Franklin varies his hand position between flat and angled.
Again, I think Chao would do well to subscribe to Paul’s Foundation course. |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2024 4:53 pm
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| Greg Vincent wrote: |
I’m struck by how completely different JayDee’s and Buddy’s hand positions are
—and yet they both absolutely mastered the instrument. |
Good point, Greg.
As I expect you know, that is because Buddy's "hybrid" technique (that I described above), causes his hand to be positioned much higher above the strings than the classic palm-blocking technique exemplified by Lloyd Green, Tom Brumley, and many others.
- This is because Buddy used the tip of his ring finger to block finger-picked strings, instead of the edge of his hand as classic palm-blockers do.
- As can be seen in videos of Buddy, his hand posture looks almost like he is flat-picking his guitar (using his thumb for the downstrokes and his middle finger for the upstrokes). This "hybrid" technique enabled him to play at blazing fast tempos.
The three picking techniques that I described above requires one's hand posture to be very different from one to the other. It is a bit like comparing oranges to apples in terms of hand posture. 
This doesn't mean that they can't be "mixed & matched". For example, JD Maness seems to have seamlessly integrated palm-blocking with "fingertip blocking" (a.k.a. "pick-blocking"), as can be seen in the 25-minute Austin City Limits video I referenced at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfOm9-QI95A&t=171s .
- Dave |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2024 5:11 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| That pic is not an accurate example of JayDee’s (or anyone I know of) default pick-hand position. He is either between licks, or in the middle of a slide, or something other than poised to play the next phrase. |
Fred,
Hmm, your comment makes me feel like I am being accused of unfairly "cherry-picking" a screenshot of JD's picking technique that is out of the ordinary--when I have done nothing of the sort! 
If you watch the section of the video "Desert Rose Band Chris Hillman The Byrds Related Live Austin City Limits Aug 5th 1987 Herb Pedersen" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfOm9-QI95A&t=171s from 2:36 to 2:57 minutes ("Why You Been Gone So Long?"), you will see numerous examples of JD lifting his hand quite high off the strings--in just those 21 seconds.
And if you had watched the rest of that 25 minute video clip, you would have seen more examples of the same thing:
- 5:38 to 5:52 minutes "One Step Forward"
- 10:56 to 11:03 mins., 11:28 to 11:36 min. "Love Reunited" (Note that JD appears to start these two solos with "fingertip blocking", then switches to palm-blocking)
- 16:30 to 16:47 "Hello Trouble".
- 23:29 to 23:43 "The Price I Pay"
In my experience, pre-conceived opinions often cause people to miss valuable learning opportunities.
IMHO, here's the question that should have been asked...
Why is JD lifting his hand so much higher on "Why You Been Gone So Long?" than in your "better example" of "Hickory Wind"?
- Answer: Because "Hickory Wind" is a slow, soft ballad that calls for a delicate touch, and "Why You Been Gone So Long?" is a hard-driving rocker that calls for more aggressive playing.
- On "Why You Been Gone So Long?", JD is picking very aggressively, and with palm-blocking one's hand naturally rises higher the harder one picks the strings--wouldn't you agree?
Does that sound like a reasonable explanation to you?
-Dave
Last edited by Dave Magram on 17 Nov 2024 9:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chao Kang Lee
From:
Taiwan
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Posted 17 Nov 2024 6:13 pm
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| Brian Spratt wrote: |
I agree completely with others here that one thing you can do right away to help is getting different finger picks. Those look like Dunlop (or at least similar to Dunlop) and they were completely unusable to me for the very reasons you're encountering. The unnecessary bulk on the back side of my finger interfered with adjacent strings, buzzing and muting when I didn't want them to.
Get some National brand fingerpicks. There are a couple different version of them but shape-wise they are all the same, so just pick one. I've used the stainless steel and also the nickel alloy. The difference in tone or anything else is extremely subtle and not worth worrying about. You mentioned Right Hand Alpha... Jeff always told guys to get rid of the Dunlop picks for this very reason as well. He had his own signature picks made for a while. I have a pair, and I can tell you they are shaped quite similar to National picks.
Here's a picture of my hand with National picks. You can see that the natural resting position of my hand looks very similar to yours. The biggest difference I see is that the tips of my fingers are SLIGHTLY more vertical than yours. For example, your middle finger looks like its nearly horizontal at the tip... too much of that results the "claw" grip Jeff warns against (although I've seen players play fantastically with a "claw" technique, so this is all subjective).
I would say try to VERY slightly roll your hand to the right and try to make the most of your "peak knuckle", as Jeff describes in Right Hand Alpha. This will have the effect of pulling the tips of your fingers into a slightly straighter, more vertical position and less towards being flat across the strings. Experimenting with this in conjunction with experimenting with bending some new (preferably National) fingerpicks should yield some improvement.
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Thank you Brian Thanks for the clear photos
I have followed your advice and ordered a few National Finger Picks
I can provide more angle photos of my hands later. Can you please help me to see if there is any problem? Thank you again for your help.
_________________
Mullen G2
Mullen Discovery
Sho~Bud The pro III |
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Chao Kang Lee
From:
Taiwan
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Posted 18 Nov 2024 1:01 am
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| Brian Spratt wrote: |
I agree completely with others here that one thing you can do right away to help is getting different finger picks. Those look like Dunlop (or at least similar to Dunlop) and they were completely unusable to me for the very reasons you're encountering. The unnecessary bulk on the back side of my finger interfered with adjacent strings, buzzing and muting when I didn't want them to.
Get some National brand fingerpicks. There are a couple different version of them but shape-wise they are all the same, so just pick one. I've used the stainless steel and also the nickel alloy. The difference in tone or anything else is extremely subtle and not worth worrying about. You mentioned Right Hand Alpha... Jeff always told guys to get rid of the Dunlop picks for this very reason as well. He had his own signature picks made for a while. I have a pair, and I can tell you they are shaped quite similar to National picks.
Here's a picture of my hand with National picks. You can see that the natural resting position of my hand looks very similar to yours. The biggest difference I see is that the tips of my fingers are SLIGHTLY more vertical than yours. For example, your middle finger looks like its nearly horizontal at the tip... too much of that results the "claw" grip Jeff warns against (although I've seen players play fantastically with a "claw" technique, so this is all subjective).
I would say try to VERY slightly roll your hand to the right and try to make the most of your "peak knuckle", as Jeff describes in Right Hand Alpha. This will have the effect of pulling the tips of your fingers into a slightly straighter, more vertical position and less towards being flat across the strings. Experimenting with this in conjunction with experimenting with bending some new (preferably National) fingerpicks should yield some improvement.
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Hello Brian, this is a photo of my hand. The place marked in red circle is where it touches the upper string. I have turned my hand to the right as far as possible (continuing to turn to the right will enter the gap between the palm and little finger) but It is still unavoidable to touch the upper string when picking the strings (this will cause some noise and easy to accidentally touch). I uploaded the video of picking the strings to https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z2eFQOF0kH8
Thanks again for everyone's help
_________________
Mullen G2
Mullen Discovery
Sho~Bud The pro III |
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Chao Kang Lee
From:
Taiwan
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Posted 18 Nov 2024 1:07 am
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| Greg Vincent wrote: |
I’m struck by how completely different JayDee’s and Buddy’s hand positions are
—and yet they both absolutely mastered the instrument.
Good luck to you in bringing more exposure to the pedal steel in Taiwan! 👍 |
Thank you Greg
I won't give up on becoming a better player
In Taiwan, there are less than 5 people who play pedal steel. 
_________________
Mullen G2
Mullen Discovery
Sho~Bud The pro III |
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Brian Spratt
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2024 4:01 am
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| Chao Kang Lee wrote: |
Hello Brian, this is a photo of my hand. The place marked in red circle is where it touches the upper string. I have turned my hand to the right as far as possible (continuing to turn to the right will enter the gap between the palm and little finger) but It is still unavoidable to touch the upper string when picking the strings (this will cause some noise and easy to accidentally touch). I uploaded the video of picking the strings to https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z2eFQOF0kH8
Thanks again for everyone's help
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Chao, I understand your frustration! I struggled with that exact same part of my hand hitting the "next" string as well. Fundamentally, you need to get the pick down into proper striking position, but keep your finger far enough away to not hit adjacent strings accidentally. A couple points for you to consider:
1) Adjust your finger picks so that they wrap around closer to the tips of your fingers. This was a big one for me. The way I play now with my picks felt very unnatural and uncomfortable initially because of how close to the tips of my fingers the fingerpicks rest. Below is a picture from Jeff Newman. This picture is based on a National finger pick. Note that the pick is wrapped around the fingernail and it does not come back any further than the fingernail onto the flesh behind the cuticle. Every player's hand will be slightly different, of course, so I'm just pointing out that you want the pick seated quite far forward towards the tip of your finger and it might feel unnatural at first, like its about to slip off. Keep with it and if the pick feels like it won't stick on, get your fingertips damp and then slide your picks on. You'll notice they stay in place that way.
2) Work on bending and shaping it to get the tip of your fingerpick "up and away" from your finger tip. In other words, you want to move the part of the pick that strikes the string as far away as you can from the part of your finger currently getting in the way and hitting the adjacent string. This tip works hand-in-hand with the previous tip. Again, look at the picture below from Jeff. The tip of his finger pick extends well beyond his finger tip both "up" and "away", if that makes sense.
3) Both of the above pieces of advice will be much easier with the National picks, so you can look forward to getting those soon.
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Doug Taylor
From:
Shelbyville, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2024 6:48 am
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I started 6 years ago with Jeff’s Right Hand Alpha and never could get it very good. I went all in with Joe Wrights 32 moves and pick blocking.
This past summer I started studying with a new teacher and she encouraged me to go back to thumb middle like Jeff and palm blocking.
I have been playing along with Jeff’s exercises on the video and started about 70% and increase by 1% every day. I got all the way to 100% and the next day started again at 50% and increase each day by 1%
I have been doing this since August and palm blocking is starting to feel natural so I would encourage you to go slow and make it a long term project and down the road it will come! Maybe not exactly like Jeff’s hand but it will come if you put in the time! |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2024 1:57 pm
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Hi Chang (and anyone else),
If you are interested, I can send you a 10-page guide on palm-blocking that I put together several years ago for a student.
Over the years, several new players on the SGF have asked me to send them a copy, and have reported that it was very helpful.
The reason why it is 10 pages long is that it consists of a series of very simple step-by-step exercises to "de-construct" the challenging palm-blocking technique.
Palm-blocking looks very easy, but is difficult to learn for many new players.
It also has some tips that you may find useful, such as how to shape your fingerpicks specifically for palm-blocking, etc.
There is no charge for it. All I ask for is to let me know if it is helpful or not.
If you want a copy, please send me a Private Message with your email address.
- Dave
Last edited by Dave Magram on 18 Nov 2024 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Travis Bubenik
From:
Marfa, Texas
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Posted 18 Nov 2024 2:51 pm
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| Brian Spratt wrote: |
| Chao Kang Lee wrote: |
Hello Brian, this is a photo of my hand. The place marked in red circle is where it touches the upper string. I have turned my hand to the right as far as possible (continuing to turn to the right will enter the gap between the palm and little finger) but It is still unavoidable to touch the upper string when picking the strings (this will cause some noise and easy to accidentally touch). I uploaded the video of picking the strings to https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z2eFQOF0kH8
Thanks again for everyone's help
|
Chao, I understand your frustration! I struggled with that exact same part of my hand hitting the "next" string as well. Fundamentally, you need to get the pick down into proper striking position, but keep your finger far enough away to not hit adjacent strings accidentally. A couple points for you to consider:
1) Adjust your finger picks so that they wrap around closer to the tips of your fingers. This was a big one for me. The way I play now with my picks felt very unnatural and uncomfortable initially because of how close to the tips of my fingers the fingerpicks rest. Below is a picture from Jeff Newman. This picture is based on a National finger pick. Note that the pick is wrapped around the fingernail and it does not come back any further than the fingernail onto the flesh behind the cuticle. Every player's hand will be slightly different, of course, so I'm just pointing out that you want the pick seated quite far forward towards the tip of your finger and it might feel unnatural at first, like its about to slip off. Keep with it and if the pick feels like it won't stick on, get your fingertips damp and then slide your picks on. You'll notice they stay in place that way.
2) Work on bending and shaping it to get the tip of your fingerpick "up and away" from your finger tip. In other words, you want to move the part of the pick that strikes the string as far away as you can from the part of your finger currently getting in the way and hitting the adjacent string. This tip works hand-in-hand with the previous tip. Again, look at the picture below from Jeff. The tip of his finger pick extends well beyond his finger tip both "up" and "away", if that makes sense.
3) Both of the above pieces of advice will be much easier with the National picks, so you can look forward to getting those soon.
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This is the key. I also had the problems OP described with my fingers touching the next string up until I started wearing my picks farther out. Takes some gettin used to but totally a helpful adjustment. |
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Chao Kang Lee
From:
Taiwan
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Posted 19 Nov 2024 6:41 pm
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| Dave Magram wrote: |
Hi Chang (and anyone else),
If you are interested, I can send you a 10-page guide on palm-blocking that I put together several years ago for a student.
Over the years, several new players on the SGF have asked me to send them a copy, and have reported that it was very helpful.
The reason why it is 10 pages long is that it consists of a series of very simple step-by-step exercises to "de-construct" the challenging palm-blocking technique.
Palm-blocking looks very easy, but is difficult to learn for many new players.
It also has some tips that you may find useful, such as how to shape your fingerpicks specifically for palm-blocking, etc.
There is no charge for it. All I ask for is to let me know if it is helpful or not.
Thanks for your help Dave
I have already sent you a private message. Thank you. 
If you want a copy, please send me a Private Message with your email address.
- Dave |
_________________
Mullen G2
Mullen Discovery
Sho~Bud The pro III |
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