| Author |
Topic: Here We Go Again! |
Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2024 5:51 pm |
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With my old steels I had a pretty good handle on pedals and knees. I could play a simple I, IV, V swing, or a slow ballad. With the new guy, not so much. Some of you know about the split tuning problem.
WELL, before I came crying again to you, I did some "mapping" of my guitar. As it turns out, while I asked for an "Emmons" set up. (that I was familiar with), the current set up is a "Terry Wood - 1971 Push Pull Emmons" set up. Couple that with the "split tuning" issue (which may or may not be resolved as there are 2 more screws in there), I think I have a major problem.
I fear that I'm not going to get out of this alive. Unfortunately, this is exactly why I gave up the steel after 2 disasters. Now, I'm on number 3. And I've had it.
I'm open to any suggestions before I call Chuck. I can't deal with this any more. I have better uses for the $$$$
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2024 7:19 pm
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Hi Don,
I completely understand--the pedal steel guitar can be a very frustrating instrument to learn. I call it the "Rubik's Cube" of musical instruments! 
We've all been in your shoes at one time or another, I'm sure.
Here's the thing to keep in mind--you don't need 9 pedals & 10 knee levers to make great music.
A lot of the great players like Emmons, Brumley, and Lloyd Green recorded many hit recordings with just two or three pedals--and no knee levers at all.
For example, Tom Brumley played his iconic solo on "Together Again" with just two pedals--and no knee levers!
A lot of pedal steel instructional material--the Winston & Keith book Pedal Steel Guitar, for example--use just three pedals and one knee lever to play some very sophisticated music.
It sounds like you, like most of us on the Forum, are infatuated with the sound of the instrument.
So, before you throw in the towel...
Let me ask you three questions:
1. THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION: What are you having the most difficulty or challenges with? Is it "blocking" (muting the strings)? Is it getting the guitar in tune? Something else?
2. What is the copedent (pedal & knee lever setup) of your pedal steel? (You don't need to make a fancy chart--just list each pedal and what it does to which strings. For example, "Pedal A: Raises strings 5 & 10 from B to C#")
3. What brand of pedal steel is it--Emmons, Sho-Bud, etc.?
People on this Forum are very helpful.
Perhaps we may come up with some helpful suggestions for you.
- Dave |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2024 8:04 pm
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As Dave says, if your ABC pedals and E-raise/E-lower levers perform their primary functions, you are in business. There is probably a lowering lever for string 2 and 9, too, which comes in handy. Everything else - splits, additional levers and pedals, etc., you can basically ignore for the time being.
I read your other post regarding a frustrating experience you are having trying to make mechanical adjustments to your new guitar. Learning how to play comes with its own bag of beans without the added aggravation of the machine not working properly - or to your satisfaction. But, if you can focus on what does work and get some actual “learn how to play” time in, it might balance out the experience in favor of hanging on to what is probably a pretty nice instrument. |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2024 8:49 pm
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I've made a matrix of "what I expected" and "what I have" currently.
I'm way to tired to scan and post. Tomorrow.
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| if your ABC pedals and E-raise/E-lower levers perform their primary functions, you are in business. |
Yeah. No. Ain't doing it. I can't even figure out which pedal is which. I would be obliged if you could let me know what the correct nomenclature for the pedal is. My understanding is that the further most pedal to the LEFT is P-1 (A pedal). Next is P-2 (B pedal) Next is P-3 (C pedal) and 4 is the "Franklin pedal" Furthest to the right. If I remember, I will post a chart that is contradictory. It shows the A + B pedals ... ah, screw it.
| Quote: |
| What brand of pedal steel is it--Emmons, Sho-Bud, etc.? |
It's a "Desert Rose" that I bought from Chuck Black. He's in Arizona.
| Quote: |
| Here's the thing to keep in mind--you don't need 9 pedals & 10 knee levers to make great music. |
It's an S-10. 4P, 5 K. I had a Sho-Bud D-10. And, no. I don't need 19 levers. All I want to do is make a major IV then a major V with a foot roll. All I get now is a susIV and a minorII. Am I asking too much?
It took forever with the gentlemen here to figure out my first problem was a SCREW! (thanks, Jon)
| Quote: |
| I read your other post regarding a frustrating experience you are having trying to make mechanical adjustments to your new guitar. Learning how to play comes with its own bag of beans without the added aggravation of the machine not working properly - or to your satisfaction. But, if you can focus on what does work and get some actual “learn how to play” time in, it might balance out the experience in favor of hanging on to what is probably a pretty nice instrument. |
As much as I appreciate that Fred, I'm friggin fed up. I have 14 guitars, 3 keyboards, 2 drum sets, and recording equipment that cost me a ton. If I can't buy a BRAND NEW steel without having to futtz around with it, I'm done.
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2024 9:47 pm
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| Don Downes wrote: |
| I can't even figure out which pedal is which. I would be obliged if you could let me know what the correct nomenclature for the pedal is. My understanding is that the further most pedal to the LEFT is P-1 (A pedal). Next is P-2 (B pedal) Next is P-3 (C pedal) and 4 is the "Franklin pedal" |
Don,
Just to help clarify the nomenclature a bit...
The "A, B, C" labels describe the function of each pedal, not the sequencing:
● The "A" pedal is always the one that raises the B strings to C#.
● The "B" pedal is always the one that raises the G# strings to A.
● The "C" pedal raises the 4th string E to F#, and the 5th string B to C#.
The reason for this labeling is that many years ago (in the mid-1950's), Buddy Emmons had the idea to split the function of Bud Isaacs' single pedal (that changed the E major triad from open E to A by pressing a single pedal down) into two separate pedals (A&B)--as described above. This opened up several new chord possibilities.
Buddy Emmons sequenced his pedals from left to right as: ABC.
Buddy told his pal Jimmy Day on the phone that he had split his pedals' function--but Jimmy misunderstood which pedals Buddy changed...and Jimmy sequenced his pedals from left to right as: CBA.
Most players today use the "Emmons setup" of ABC, but some prefer the "Day setup" of CBA. There are advantages to both, especially ergonomically.
----------------------------------------------------
Pardon the long history lesson, but it may help to explain that some of the confusing PSG jargon is because of a specific reason.
Of course, if Buddy and Jimmy had cellphones with Skype or Zoom back then, everybody might be playing the Emmons ABC setup today.
I'm wondering--do you have the "Day setup" (CBA) in which Pedal 1 is the "B" pedal raising G# strings to A, and Pedal 3 is the "A" pedal raising B strings to C#?
- Dave
Last edited by Dave Magram on 12 Nov 2024 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 12 Nov 2024 4:30 am
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Sent you a PM
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Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2024 2:01 pm
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Gentlemen, I apologize for my rant last evening. Frustration and beer is not always a good combination. My regrets.
I'm still mapping out the pedals and knees, and I have noticed a pattern. A gentleman has kindly offered to get together via Facetime and help me sort it out.
I hope nobody took any of my remarks as being disparaging towards Chuck. If so, it's not so. Chuck is a great guy and did me great favors.
Thank you all for everything.
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Joe Bill Moad
From:
Oklahoma
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Posted 12 Nov 2024 3:02 pm
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Don’t worry Man you are not alone. I am a newbie at 68 and have 2 different setups on my 2. I like the Emmons better than the Day because I made my first noticeable notes on the Emmons set up. I am always hitting the wrong pedals on the day setup, and can’t get it right. My lack of knowledge. I am going to set everything up Emmons and try again like I think will straighten me out. It’s frustrating but still fun. I won’t quit until I can get things as close to right as possible. I really enjoy the sounds kind of reminds me of playing golf. I go to the course at least once a month now not as good as I was when in my 20’s-30’s. But it’s that one or 2 shots close to the pin that keeps me going back to try again. I relate golf which is really tough to play under par to Pedal Steel. It’s those two or there licks I pick up on the pedal steel that I keep adding to, I just had a neck surgery yesterday to fix my broken neck. They replaced the 5th and6th vertebrae with synthetic ones and a steel plate and 2 screws. Surgeon said I was good for another 60 years. I have 12 weeks of recovery time ahead of me now so I will dedicate it to playing pedal steel, no golf. I figure I haven’t played pedal steel as much as I will now so I hope for an improvement.
We got to keep picking!
Joe Bill Moad
Oklahoma
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Don’t Worry About The Mule! Load The Wagon! |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2024 5:10 pm
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| Quote: |
| I really enjoy the sounds kind of reminds me of playing golf. |
Joe Bill, You could be my brother! Not sure how playing steel relates to golf, but for some strange reason, I understand. I play both. Badly. Yet, a par on 18 always keeps me going back for more.
There is nothing like the sound of a steel. It's like poetry. It touches the heart like nothing else. That's why I'm not going to quit. I will rant and rave, but who hasn't. We're lucky that there's a great group of guys and gals here to help us newbies.
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2024 6:07 pm
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| Don Downes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I really enjoy the sounds kind of reminds me of playing golf. |
Joe Bill, You could be my brother! Not sure how playing steel relates to golf, but for some strange reason, I understand. I play both. Badly. Yet, a par on 18 always keeps me going back for more. |
You think you’re weird? I relate playing music to construction.
Gotta have good tools (a nice instrument), a good plan (lessons/teacher), build a solid foundation (technique), establish a framework (a musical style to pursue), create functionality (join a band?), and paint it any color you want (develop taste and express yourself). |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2024 7:23 pm
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| Quote: |
You think you’re weird? I relate playing music to construction.
Gotta have good tools (a nice instrument), a good plan (lessons/teacher), build a solid foundation (technique), establish a framework (a musical style to pursue), create functionality (join a band?), and paint it any color you want (develop taste and express yourself). |
I don't think I'm weird. Everyone else is weird. Normal people scare me. I relate music to food. I can't live without it.
Tools? I got tons. Plan? Nah. Foundation/technique? Yeah, got that. Framework/style? I don't "pursue" a style. It depends on the situation. If you need a drummer to play Brubeck, I can do that. Motown bass player? Jameson is my hero. Jimmy Smith? Got that covered. Original ideas? I don't have a single one, yet I have a million. My OCD prevents me from focusing. That's a problem. Band? Been there done that, loved it. That's why my 1st wife divorced me. (Not a real job) Taste? Questionable. Expression? All day
I love your post, and I agree with you 100%. However, I live in New England, and I have done some nail banging in my time. The main lesson I've learned doing construction is that you need to have improvisational skills. When a simple bathroom window replacement turns into a complete reno, you better by ready. (Not a lie. It happened!)
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Joe Bill Moad
From:
Oklahoma
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Posted 12 Nov 2024 7:34 pm
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Yes Sir
I can only relate to Golf because I think it is much harder to play than any game or instrument. As you know the “swing” is a hips only power movement. For years working in the oilfield on many drilling rigs I was strong as a bull. I was swing with my arms and shoulders only. Couldnt hit the little 3 oz ball 20 yds. Then finally a golf coach got hold of me and showed me the swing and man that ball flew out of sight and straight as a string. Was a joy to behold. Then years later I can’t get the ball to fly like it did. And never will be back to those days. But now starting the pedal steel after playing teles and strats for years is my new “golf game”. I am finally getting notes to fall in line after a hundred videos and listening to great players. They make it sound so good and look so easy I know someday that light will come on and that will be the day and what a day it will be! We have to keep picking and never look back! I am addicted to the Pedal Steel!
Jbm
_________________
Don’t Worry About The Mule! Load The Wagon! |
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Samuel Phillippe
From:
Douglas Michigan, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2024 8:44 am
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| Joe Bill Moad wrote: |
Yes Sir
I am finally getting notes to fall in line after a hundred videos and listening to great players. They make it sound so good and look so easy I know someday that light will come on and that will be the day and what a day it will be! We have to keep picking and never look back! I am addicted to the Pedal Steel!
Jbm |
You got it Joe..... I have been trying to copy styles and sounds from these elite players for 2 or three years now only to realize I have my own sound and style.....keep picking and be you!!!!!!!
Sam |
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Joe Bill Moad
From:
Oklahoma
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Posted 13 Nov 2024 9:26 am
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Yes Sir I didn’t mean it that way. I am trying to pick along with David Hartley and The Late John Stannert just to learn the chords and picking arrangements. I don’t want to be a copycat in any way! If I were to pick a person to copy it would be my favorite Ralph Mooney. David and John provide me that band lesson style on YouTube that covers everything from beat to stops and everything in between. I am liking the band feeling which is not real with me plucking along but I am finding that I am picking up the pedal usage, lever usage, and the slide bar movements with some of my favorite old country songs. I don’t read music so all I can do at 68 is try to learn from these talented players I like the style of. Now when I get pretty comfortable or more educated of all the working parts, that’s when I get my own mojo going just like my guitar playing. Please tell me if what I am trying to do is not the correct way to learn? I appreciate all Advice! I am hooked on this instrument!
Respectfully
Joe Bill Moad
Oklahoma
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Don’t Worry About The Mule! Load The Wagon! |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2024 11:51 am
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@ Dave Magram. I re-re-read your post in the light of day and with a new set of eyes. With your explanation (and fabulous history lesson!) and b0b's, Rest His Soul, expertise, I have come to the conclusion that a. DON'T believe everything you read on the internet, and b. my guitar is set up with an Emmons copedent! Glory Be!
After I read your post I looked back at a post b0b made in a thread back in 2022/23. Posted was a chart of the E9 Emmons copedent. I compared his chart to the map I made last night. Yup, just like he said.
Then I compared your information, which was *extremely* helpful, to my matrix, and it's the same. You explanation of the nomenclature was spot on. I had always thought is was a matter of location rather than function. No one has ever mentioned that. Until I asked. TY.
So, to answer some of the questions in your post: P1 (farthest left) is the A pedal; P2 (mid) is a B pedal, P3 is a C pedal, and P4 lowers string 5 B to --A
The knee levers also correlate to the chart. I have a LKV which lowers 10 to -A#.
One of the things that throws me is, as a keyboard player, moving hands/notes to the left flattens, and vice versa. The knees are the opposite, left => raises, right =< lowers. I'll adjust.
New Peterson tuner coming in tomorrow and I can start on the simple job of tuning this baby up 
Big help Dave, and b0b. Much obliged.
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2024 11:55 am
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| Quote: |
| I can only relate to Golf because I think it is much harder to play than any game or instrument. |
I get that. I'm 72 and I've been playing golf for 25 years. I hope I can have 25 years on the steel and not suck as bad as I do at golf.
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 13 Nov 2024 11:59 am
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Don't make me come over there 😎
Seriously you are near enough we should get together, maybe with another of the local heroes or two, and sort out your struggles. It doesn't have to be so bad, although I have embedded many curses in the undersides of my own guitars over the years, but you might as well have company. |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2024 12:50 pm
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Anytime you and your buddies want to drive over the mountain and through the woods to NH, our door is always open.
Straggler's welcomed
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2024 8:17 am
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Hi Don,
Thanks for your kind words. I'm glad my post was helpful.
| Don Downes wrote: |
| One of the things that throws me is, as a keyboard player, moving hands/notes to the left flattens, and vice versa. The knees are the opposite, left => raises, right =< lowers. I'll adjust. |
There are logical reasons the knee levers are typically positioned where they are, and they have to do with both functionality and ergonomics--especially when you are combining pedals and knee levers...
For example, in the "Emmons ABC setup":
- The F lever that raises the E strings half a step is usually on the LKL lever because it is often combined with the A pedal to make an inversion of the I major chord three frets higher than the no-pedal I chord--and ergonomically one's left leg tends to lean to the left when engaging pedal A.
- The E lever that lowers the E strings half a step is usually on the LKR lever because it is often combined with the B pedal engaged to make a dominant seventh chord, or with both A & B pedals engaged to make a ninth chord--and ergonomically one's left leg tends to lean to the right when engaging pedal B.
The reason that the knee levers that are used more frequently are usually actuated with the player's left leg is because one's right leg is also working the volume pedal, and it can be tricky to actuate a knee lever without changing the volume pedal position.
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If you think about it, a piano operates linearly (and very logically) in just one dimension; for example, there is only one middle C on a piano keyboard.
- A six-string guitar operates in two dimensions (vertically and horizontally); there are several places on the fingerboard to play middle C.
- A pedal steel operates in three dimensions (vertically and horizontally and underneath it); there are even more ways to play a middle C using pedals and knee levers.
The pedal steel may be the "Rubik's Cube of musical instruments"--but it can do musical things no other instrument can do.
- Dave |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2024 12:15 pm
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Again Dave, you post is welcomed and very informative. Particularly with respect to the naming of the levers, and their function. I'm going to start a notebook with your posts. If I ever publish, You will have author's rights
Learning how to make inversions is VERY helpful. On piano, there are 3 inversions of a major or minor triad. Where a 9th or a 6th, etc fits within that inversion changes the entire voice and "feeling" of the chord. Knowing how to do that on the steel will be awesome.
I've certainly noticed the right lever/volume pedal thing.
One of the things that I am really going to have to get my head around is how each pedal, lever and pedal lever work in concert to create chords (other than triads). For me it's easy on a piano. But then, I am a linear thinker. Thinking in 3D is going to be a lot of fun. 
Just as a general update, the guitar (I have yet to give her a name. I already have a "Rose" named for my passed mother-in-law) is in fabulous shape. She's a joy to play and I am getting better day by day. I'm about half way through with tuning (the Peterson HD tuner is indispensable). I'm a happy picker
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2024 5:57 pm
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Hi Don,
It sounds like you haven't given up on learning to play the pedal steel yet. Good to hear!
| Don Downes wrote: |
| Learning how to make inversions is VERY helpful. On piano, there are 3 inversions of a major or minor triad. Where a 9th or a 6th, etc fits within that inversion changes the entire voice and "feeling" of the chord. Knowing how to do that on the steel will be awesome. |
I agree completely. However, I'd suggest "learning to walk before learning to run".
I have a suggestion for you, if you'd care to try it...
Here's a link to the tablature for Tom Brumley's iconic solo on "Together Again", courtesy of one of the most helpful guys on the SGF, Ricky Davis:
https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/000257.html
The tab is in the key of C#, the same key that Buck Owens recorded it in, so you can play along with Buck at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6-wKFK4sQM
(BTW, here's a little tip that many people don't know: You can slow down most YouTube videos by clicking on the little "gear" icon labelled "Settings" on the bottom right of the video, and then clicking on "Playback Speed" to select the speed you want: 75%, 50%, or 25% of normal speed.)
I believe "Together Again" is great song to start with, because:
- It is a slow tempo ballad.
- It requires only two pedals: A&B.
- Most of Tom's solo is played on just two strings.
- Tom was a most tasteful and soulful player and a master of the volume pedal, so spending time playing along with Tom is learning from a legendary master of the pedal steel.
- Most importantly, Tom's solo will give you a good idea of how to find the notes you want at different places on the neck with and without the pedals.
- Dave |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2024 8:36 pm
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| Quote: |
| It sounds like you haven't given up on learning to play the pedal steel yet. |
Not a chance Dave.
| Quote: |
| However, I'd suggest "learning to walk before learning to run". |
I agree, and it's one of the reasons I started practicing scales again. I hate scales, but, it's necessary. I'm ok with that.
Your guidance about inversions is most helpful, and lays a good foundation as to how I can work my way up the neck.
I have pretty good ears. My piano experience is helpful insofar as I know which notes get me where I want to be. Obviously, it will take me a while to learn the Ps & Ks, But the more I play, the more I can find my way around the guitar with respect to how they work, what does what, I'll get there.
I'm in a much better space now, and I'm getting more comfortable every day. I have my guys coming over to jam tomorrow. I might blow a mind or two
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"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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