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Topic: HELP! Please don't laugh |
Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2024 7:11 pm |
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I have a question regarding tuning.
I just spent the last hour (at least) practicing major scales. FYI, I haven't practiced scales since elementary school. Nonetheless, here I am at 72 playing scales. My question is, (pardon if I don't get it quite right).
When I roll off the A pedal (from V to VI) I then to go LKR -> for the VII, then release to go back to the tonic. That is quite a stretch.
Is it possible, advisable, crazy, to tune the LKR a little higher so that the throw is not so long?
Mine is a brand new 4X5 Desert Rose S-10 I bought from Chuck Back. I have done nothing other that the cursory headstock E9 tuning.
I could use some advice please.
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"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 2 Nov 2024 9:34 pm
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I'm not sure if I'm following you correctly, but it sounds like you just need a LKR adjustment to bring the lever to the left a little more? Maybe, post a picture of the underside of your guitar. I'm not familiar with the Desert Rose guitar.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2024 10:18 pm
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With you stating your guitar is S10, The guitar being lighter. A rule of thumb setting up a light guitar, Make the knee levers move farther with less pressure. So the guitar will not move around and dance when engaging the knee levers.
Tuning the knee lever higher without a stop, Will not work.
First check if the knee lever can be adjusted closer to your knee. It may have a set screw in the lever to adjust its neutral/free position. If Not.
Turn the guitar over and check the problem knee lever.
What the knee lever needs. Is shorter throw/movement. If you move the pull rod attachment point on the bell crank further from the cross shaft, 1 hole. Then check movement of lever. Move one hole at a time farther from the cross shaft, Then check, Till you find a happy middle ground, Between movement and pressure required moving guitar.
Good luck getting this problem solved, And Happy Steelin. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Nov 2024 2:38 am
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Don, when you sit at the steel, which fret does the centre of your body line up with? 12 is obvious, but 15 can help. Your left foot doesn't have to be at right angles to the pedal bar.
As the instrument is new, it will require a little personal adjustment. We are all different shapes and sizes for some reason 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Raybob Bowman
From:
S. Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2024 5:27 am Re: HELP! Please don't laugh
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| Don Downes wrote: |
Is it possible, advisable, crazy, to tune the LKR a little higher so that the throw is not so long? |
Yes, it's crazy to not have the note all the way in tune with the rest of the guitar.
I don't know the steel you have but there should be an adjustment on the lever to angle the lever to left or right as needed. You should be able to adjust the distance it moves by using a different bell crank hole.
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Sierra U12 4+5 / 1933 Dobro / homemade Tele B-bender |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2024 12:01 pm
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| Quote: |
| but it sounds like you just need a LKR adjustment to bring the lever to the left a little more? |
You did understand correctly. That is precisely what I need.
| Quote: |
| What the knee lever needs. Is shorter throw/movement. |
This makes perfect sense, and in line with Dennis's reply.
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| Don, when you sit at the steel, which fret does the centre of your body line up with? |
Not sure, Ian. By belly hangs over my belt buckle Seriously, I have a tendency to sit much farther to the left than I probably should. My belly button is definitely west of the 12th fret. I will check that.
| Quote: |
| As the instrument is new, it will require a little personal adjustment. |
This I know is also true. Given my past experiences, I want to make sure that I do the correct things, and not make a bad situation worse. That's why I rely on you guys for advice.
| Quote: |
| Yes, it's crazy to not have the note all the way in tune with the rest of the guitar. |
It's not the tuning, Raybob. The tuning is really (almost) spot on. It's the "comfort factor" that's the problem.
Gentlemen, thank you, and please keep those suggestions coming. I'm not a mechanical kind of guy, and the guts of a steel literally scare the bejeezus out of me. That said, your advice is sage, and I understand what y'all are saying. I will take a look, and see what I can do.
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2024 3:41 pm
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All great advice.
I shifted right so my middle is nearer the 12th fret. I wasn't off by too much.
I "hear" that I will need a stop for the LKR. It's a long throw and I end up slightly flat at the end.
The LKL will need a little move to the right and a slight angle change. (As it sits, the knee levers are perpendicular to the body and have "paddles". I like
'em.
I now remember, after reading all your suggestions, that I can move the knees horizontally where I am comfy. I had totally forgot that. As she sits, it ain't bad.
I did find two things: The bar that Chuck sent with the guitar was huge, and I had a difficult time with it. I got a slightly smaller bar (came today) and I'm much better at seeing (and hearing) where I want to be. And my body being closer to the 12th makes a big difference. I'm playing my major scales from open E to G (15th fret) with only a few clams. And faster.
Another 40 hours, and I'll be on to minor scales!
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2024 6:40 pm
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Y'all probably getting tired of this.
I flipped the guitar over and found the stops and angle adjustments. They will need some tweaking.
I may have made a mistake prior to the flip though. While trying to tune the G# RKL <- to F#, I hit a wall. The F# was 10-20 cents sharp. No matter how much I turned the tuning nut, it stayed sharp. It wasn't until I flipped it that I realized there was a stop that probably prevented me from getting it to F#.
I can fix that. I just hope I didn't freak up the nut!
Live and learn.
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2024 10:17 pm
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On the problem with the G# to F# You are not getting enough travel in the lower. Move the pull rod farther from the cross rod on the bell crank. One hole at a time till you get the full lower to F# with a little more adjustment.
Be sure you have a little extra movement space. From new to old strings at changing time, You may need a little more travel to F#. |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2024 11:27 am
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| Quote: |
| G# to F# You are not getting enough travel in the lower. |
That's correct, Bobby. Fortunately, there is an adjustable stop on the RKL lever. I'll back it off a bit for more travel, then tweak it in. And, I will give it a little more room for string changes, temp changes, etc.
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"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2024 1:04 pm
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First thing, You are having a problem with the 6th G# to F# lower. Have you changed strings? Did the guitar have a plain 6th string, And it was replaced with a wound 6th string?
Replacing a plain string with a wound string causes a big problem. The wound string has a smaller core which means, the string must be pulled or loosened further, To reach a raise or lower note on the guitar.
If the 6th string is a wound string, Changing the string to a plain string would be the easiest cure.
That 6th string plain or wound is why many experienced steel players, Buy 6 sets of strings at a time so they are sure, So they do not have to work on the guitar, So it will tune proper.
An adjustable stop is to make the knee lever engagement comfortable for the player.
Changes in the pull system itself, Works better for setting up proper tuning. |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2024 1:27 pm
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| Quote: |
| Have you changed strings? Did the guitar have a plain 6th string, |
No string change, and Yes, plain G.
The guitar is essentially brand new, and I saw no reason to change strings. As for a wound G, I would NEVER EVER use anything other than a plain G on anything. Horrible things.
As for string sets, I have changed a few on a couple of steels and I always buy sets. I do that with all my guitars. And I always buy the same brand. Sometimes I will buy different gauges, but always D'Addario NYXLs for my 6 string electrics. That way I can pick and choose gauges if I want without any downside. I find the NYXLs to be the best strings for me.
| Quote: |
| Changes in the pull system itself, Works better for setting up proper tuning. |
I am really unsure of how this works. I'm an electrical guy, not mechanical. I once showed a friend, a mechanical engineer, the underside of my MSA. He shook his head an walked away.
Once I can do more research about pulls and bell cranks and such, I'm gonna go with what I know. I'm playing for myself and have no plans for a tour. Baby steps fpr the old man
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"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2024 3:54 pm
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| Quote: |
| Move the pull rod farther from the cross rod on the bell crank. |
NOW I understand what you're saying. I DO see how moving the pull rod to a different hole on the bell crank affects the travel. The farther away from the cross rod the pull rod is, the farther the travel. (Simple trigonometry   )
That's exactly what you said! Been a long time since college.
Thanks!
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"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2024 10:09 pm
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Now that you understand what changing leverages in the system, Allows you to lengthen or shorten a pull within the mechanical linkage of the guitar.
This will help you a lot solving problems with the guitar.
You are an excellent student and learn quickly.
Hard to teach over the miles.
Good luck with your steel. BJ |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2024 10:50 am
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| Quote: |
You are an excellent student and learn quickly.
Hard to teach over the miles. |
Thank you, Professor. You are a great teacher. Miles and all. You can tell me at an time not to ask anymore questions. But I do have another 
Speaking now only of the "raise": On the end plate where the pull rods exit, there are 3 holes. The bell crank for each pull rod also has 3 holes.
1. If the pull rod is connected to the bell crank at the hole closest to the "strings" should that pull rod also exit the end plate through the hole closest to the strings, i.e. upper hole? This would make sense to me because that would keep the pull rod parallel to the body.
2. If this is true, if I move the pull rod to the middle hole on the bell crank, should the rod exit through the middle hole on the end plate, thus keeping the pull rod parallel? I know this would entail removing and reinstalling the pull rod, but that should be relatively ( ) easy.
3. Or doesn't it matter?
Thanks
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"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2024 1:49 pm
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Hi, Don. You do not need the rods to be parallel to the deck of the guitar.
The different holes in the changer provide a fine-tuning adjustment of sorts to the leverages. Just as different slots on the bellcrank adjust travel and stiffness, so does the hole selection at the changer.
NOTE: This picture of the holes in the changer is with the guitar upside down, in the position you would normally be working on it.
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Once your guitar is rodded at the factory, you should think long and hard before making changes. Also note that moving to a different hole on the changer only makes a small difference. Most of the heavy lifting is at the bellcrank, so start there if you're wanting to change the travel or feel of a pedal or knee. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 5 Nov 2024 2:55 pm
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I agree with Tucker. I find it really hard to believe that Chuck would send out a guitar in the condition you say it is. Based on your questions and comments, it seems you don't have an understanding of how the undercarraige works. Without that knowledge, you could be on your way to making it far worse. Your first call should have been to Chuck.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2024 4:15 pm
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| Quote: |
| I agree with Tucker. I find it really hard to believe that Chuck would send out a guitar in the condition you say it is. Based on your questions and comments, it seems you don't have an understanding of how the undercarraige works. Without that knowledge, you could be on your way to making it far worse. Your first call should have been to Chuck. |
Let's start with Chuck. Chuck was nothing but a God send to me. We've texted, talked, Facetimed, etc. My first call with a question was to Chuck. Please don't put words into my mouth, or insinuate that Chuck did me wrong. He sold me his own personal guitar because I wanted one so bad, and in a hurry. He obliged. So, PLEASE, back off.
Moving on, the guitar is in perfect condition. I have a simple problem. If you had read my post from the beginning, you would know I know nothing, The big issue is "While trying to tune the G# RKL <- to F#, I hit a wall. The F# was 10-20 cents sharp." As Bobby "BJ" rightly said, I don't have enough throw. I found that there is a "stop" that I will need to adjust to give me a little more throw. Thanks, BJ. Problem solved.
With respect to your comment: "Based on your questions and comments, it seems you don't have an understanding of how the undercarraige [sic] works." You are absolutely correct. I don't. Further, your comment: "Without that knowledge, you could be on your way to making it far worse." Thank you, Captain Obvious.
I have found that Bobby and Dennis, Raybob, Ian and Tucker have gone out of their way to school me in how the undercarriage works. And learning I am, and I'm grateful to everyone who has helped me. Simple as that.
Constructive criticism I welcome, and accept gladly. Plain old criticism? Yeah, not so much.
If y'all got nothing good to say...
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"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 7 Nov 2024 4:35 pm
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Well gentlemen, I am at a loss.
Regarding my F# problem. I have moved the pull rod on the RKL to all 5 holes on the bell crank. It is still sharp by +/- 10 cents. Tuning pegs have zero effect.
It is beyond my comprehension that you can change the pull distance and realize no change in pitch. To me, that is physically and mathematically impossible.
Where/what else in the pull chain am I missing? I may be totally wrong, but it appears to me that the RKL has one function: lower the G# to an F#
This is the reason that I gave up playing the steel. I spend TOO MUCH TIME putzing around with it than playing and enjoying it. This should be a simple fix. If I'm being the idiot, I will gladly cop to it. If it's a defect, I can deal with that, too. (though I doubt it coming from Chuck).
I have a call into Chuck. But I really need some help badly.
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 7 Nov 2024 4:58 pm
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See if there is a screw in the 6th string space. If so, back it off.
We can get into how to properly use it later. It is a split tuning screw. For now, you just want it out of play.
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 7 Nov 2024 5:02 pm
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I have two thoughts.
The problem you're seeing where you can't reach a target pitch can also be caused by an overtuned nut. Maybe this isn't the deal since you're probably taking the nut off every time you move the rod to a different slot on the bellcrank, right? Sorry, I don't know how the Desert Rose rods attach.
If overtuning were the problem, you would want to put the rod back to wherever it was when you received the guitar, then loosen the nylon tuning nut all the way, or at least until it isn't changing the pitch at all when you engage the lever.
Then tune the open string -- then try to tune the lower.
Long shot here... but by chance, has the spring been adjusted recently? It would be possible to see the problem you're experiencing if the spring had been over-tightened.
If you haven't done that, don't try to make any adjustments now. There's a Goldilocks thing on the spring such that too tight or too loose can cause various problems. The factory setting on this new guitar is probably correct and springs rarely need adjustment... so the problem probably lies elsehwere. |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 8 Nov 2024 8:44 am
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Tucker, that's a no to all your questions. Except for backing off the tuning nut. I did do that when adjusting the rod into the bell crank.
Jon, there is in fact a screw at 6 (G#). There is also a red mark on the tuning nut on 6. When I spoke to Chuck, he referenced that specifically. Told me not to touch it as it had something to do with "compensation". Since I have/had no clue as to what that was, I haven't touched it.
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"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 8 Nov 2024 9:09 am
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| Don Downes wrote: |
Jon, there is in fact a screw at 6 (G#). There is also a red mark on the tuning nut on 6. When I spoke to Chuck, he referenced that specifically. Told me not to touch it as it had something to do with "compensation". Since I have/had no clue as to what that was, I haven't touched it. |
Yes, that's exactly what it is. And setup procedures both are and are not complicated. But now that you have altered other things, this could be exactly where the problem is. I won't guess as to how likely. Just that it is very possible.
The only thing that messing with this screw (and the red nut) will affect are what happens when you simultaneously engage the B pedal and this lever.
IMO you should regard this as having already been changed, via the changes in the rodding.
I would definitely suggest backing off the screw and seeing if this is the issue. As I said, we can walk you through the fine tuning of the split later. But it is irrelevant if the lever is not accomplishing the full pull. |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 8 Nov 2024 9:27 am
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| Quote: |
| But now that you have altered other things, this could be exactly where the problem is |
The only thing I've really changed is the hole in the bell crank where the rod attaches (that was to facilitate a longer throw). I think that I should put the rod back to it's original position in the bell crank. That way I'm pretty much back to original. Then back out that screw. Agree?
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"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 8 Nov 2024 9:35 am
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The only thing that screw does is limit the amount that the changer can move (lower) -- something necessary if you tune the combination of lever & B pedal to be an in-tune G.
Changing that screw setting will affect nothing else.
I'm on my way out the door. |
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