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Topic: Emmons Push Pull |
Danny Caporn
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Posted 9 Oct 2024 11:00 pm |
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Is their a way of achieving on a push pull to have
RKL 1st string raise F# to G# and 2nd string Eb to E and
RKR 2nd string lower Eb to D and C#.
The 2nd string raise is canceled by the lower.
tried all kinds of spacings and springs to no success. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2024 7:21 am
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| Most of the 2nd string half stops on pushpulls begin with the 2nd string pulled forward to a D#. If you want to raise it and have the 1/2 stop then you need to develop a different way to achieve it. There are a few different methods one of which is adding a 1/2 stop from the changer finger to an added bar spanning the front-rear aprons- much like those that came on many of them but generally closer to the changer. |
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Jason Altshuler
From:
Brooklyn, NY
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Posted 10 Oct 2024 11:34 am
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| Don't ask me how it's done, because I didn't set it up, but this is exactly my p/p's copedent so I know it is possible. |
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Norman Evans
From:
Tennessee
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Posted 11 Oct 2024 6:06 am
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Here's a pic of that setup without the second string pull to E. Just add the pull to the second string for the E. The spring going to the second string pull here is the half stop.
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2024 9:56 am
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| That spring must be removed in order to be able to raise the 2nd string 1/2 step. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2024 8:51 am
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Jim is correct. The second string needs to be set back up like a regular lower to achieve a raise. You will lose the nice half stop that 2nd string has but one can be set up another way. It’s also going to make 2nd string lower lever just a little longer throw. The 2nd string raise to me is not needed but I guess some like it. To answer your question, yes, that set up can be done on a push pull.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 25 Oct 2024 11:59 am Re: Emmons Push Pull
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| Danny Caporn wrote: |
Is their a way of achieving on a push pull to have
RKL 1st string raise F# to G# and 2nd string Eb to E and
RKR 2nd string lower Eb to D and C#.
The 2nd string raise is canceled by the lower.
tried all kinds of spacings and springs to no success. |
I think the OP is asking a different question than the one that's been answered here re: half stops. I read it to say that he wants the 2nd string lower to override the raise when engaged simultaneously, essentially a split. That's not really possible on a push-pull without a lot of chicanery with extra rods, springs and slack. Since everything pitch-wise is controlled by the position of the raise finger on a PP, splitting a note requires a means of stopping the raise finger at some intermediate point, even though the raise pedal or lever still wants to pull it all the way to its stop.
There is an old and fairly simple workaround that creates a faux split on a PP by creating a tunable hard stop on the raise by way of an extra rod on the lower that stops the raise mid-pull when enaged. This requires some half-pedaling of the raise, but it results in a firm and reliable split note.
There is another trick that allows a split by adding an extra long shock spring on the raise that is stiff enough to engage the raise reliably, but still soft enough to compress further when the lower is engaged simultaneously, such that the raise can be stopped mechanically by an extra rod on the lower at an intermediate split note. The lower rod pushes directly on the raise finger to compress the long shock spring and override the raise. This allows for more or less normal action of the pedal like a split on an all-pull guitar, but requires some compromise in terms of pedal feel with the extra slack and spring on the raise. Theoretically with enough slack you could completely override the raise, but I believe that would be fairly impractical.
The new Emmons company has a system for splitting notes on their ReSound guitars. I've never seen one in person so I'm not sure how it works, but it's something that Ron Lashley and Buddy Emmons had experimented with on some of the early PPs. There is an extra row of screws on the end plate to tune it, it may involve something similar to the long spring trick above but I'm not sure. Perhaps someone who owns one can chime in. Kelcey O'Neil has been doing this setup on the new Emmons guitars for a while now so he would be a good person to ask about the limits of practicality for what you're trying to do. Maybe he will weigh in here, I'd be curious to know more about how their system works.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2024 1:05 pm
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How you gonna do RkR and RKL at same time? Why yall need second string raise anyway? You got an E note 2 strings down. I surely am reading this wrong.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 25 Oct 2024 2:49 pm
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| How you gonna do RkR and RKL at same time?... |
Good point. It's been a couple of weeks and OP hasn't responded so we may never know what it is that he's trying to do.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Danny Caporn
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Posted 1 Nov 2024 10:19 pm Emmons Push Pull
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OK Thanks for the response to my question.
I went back to the basics re push pulls.
First and important "tune the changer" to the notes for strings 1 and 2 with pulls and lowers rods free.
Then manually operate the lower and hold while setting the raise rod to achieve the necessary slack. Then adjust the raise travel to achieve the raise note.
The half stop was done by installing a Sho Bud style adjustable barrel to the start of the lowering of string 9.
I also installed a vertical Knee lever to lower the B's.
Now the customer has the same E9 copedant on his new Williams and the Emmons PP.
Not everyone's taste but what the customer wants. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2024 6:53 am
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| Saves time if you set the lowers 1st and hold them in while setting the raises to insure you have enough travel. |
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Dave Campbell
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 16 Nov 2024 4:24 pm Re: Emmons Push Pull
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| Danny Caporn wrote: |
OK Thanks for the response to my question.
I went back to the basics re push pulls.
First and important "tune the changer" to the notes for strings 1 and 2 with pulls and lowers rods free.
Then manually operate the lower and hold while setting the raise rod to achieve the necessary slack. Then adjust the raise travel to achieve the raise note.
The half stop was done by installing a Sho Bud style adjustable barrel to the start of the lowering of string 9.
I also installed a vertical Knee lever to lower the B's.
Now the customer has the same E9 copedant on his new Williams and the Emmons PP.
Not everyone's taste but what the customer wants. |
could you show me a picture of that? i'd love to have a stiifer half stop on my 2nd string lower, and i think i might have a spare sho bud barrel. |
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