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Topic: Pink Floyd and steel guitar question |
Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 10 Oct 2024 4:07 am |
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Greetings all,
Recently I eavesdropped into Pink Floyd's Dark Side record again, but this time with the ear of a musician.
On "Breathe" Gilmour plays a steel guitar. Four decades ago, when I heard that number, I deemed it a standard electric guitar. Although I was conscious about steel guitars (which, at the time, we all summarized as "Hawaiian Guitars"), I did not recognize it as such, because it lacks any of the common musical clichés that would have immediately identified it as Country, Western Swing or Hawaiian.
So although Gilmour is not predominantly known for his mastery in steel guitars, he is a master of them on his own right.
So back to this track. I have seen video shots or pictures where he plays what looks like a lap steel, albeit on a table or stand, and on other times there was a console steel standing around.
The sparse changes he makes on "Breathe" could readily be accomplished with a pedal steel, but I have never seen him with a pedal steel - which does not mean much.
On "Breathe" he plays what sounds like a Stringmaster in places. I think I can identify this tone at some spot.
So it ought to be a tuning that lends itself to such a change. I have read that he uses open tunings like DADGAD.
The tone is pristine, but with a lot of sustain. Distortion like a Big Muff methinks can thus be phased out.
Thinking of his bias for technical gear, he would probably use a compressor rather than a volume swell, very likely a Dynacomp. So, as I said before, a master of his own in a way.
Has anybody of you experienced folks an idea how this was done?
Thanks, -Helmut
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 10 Oct 2024 4:38 am
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Helmut, I think you can get a good sense of what's going on here, though it isn't Gilmour playing the lap steel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3sP6AXKuYg
While I don't know specifically which tuning he used, to me it sounds like standard guitar tuning.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 10 Oct 2024 5:04 am
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Such an influential guitarist has a great number of discussions about his gear selection online. Here's the Gilmourish website on his slide guitar usage:
https://www.gilmourish.com/?page_id=69
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Brad’s Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 10 Oct 2024 5:13 am
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Mike, there is some rationality about it being a standard guitar tuning: there is no extra learning curve for a busy musician.
Brad, I know this site but I never found my way to this branch of the site.
Haha, they write he indeed had a pedal steel, but he later had the pedals removed, very funny. We all know that "removing" the pedals just means not mounting them next time upon set-up, and we all know that a pedal steel is a heavy weight, which is why he got rid of it. It is kind of an overkill to haul a pedal steel without pedals for non-pedal usage.
And then the site says more than one time that he uses an open E minor tuning. This makes total sense for the work he does. And seemingly there was a volume pedal.
It is interesting that he mastered that one (obviously), because that is usually the least thing a teacher stresses for a learner.
But considered the scarce but beefy tones he plays...
As I said, a master of his own.
It looks I was right about hearing the Fender-y tone on the recording. I have a Stringmaster work-a-like and they definitely have some recognizable and wonderful tone.
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 10 Oct 2024 12:15 pm
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This guy here gives some excellent clues. This may well be done on a lap steel. Actually better, if you are used to that.
_________________
feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 10 Oct 2024 1:27 pm
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| I just went to see teh PInk FLoyd experience Australian band here in my town, the did use what looked like a 6 string pa steel on a stand up pedestal type stand for a few numbers, great tone!!! I couldnt zoom in enough to see what exactly he was using... |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 10 Oct 2024 11:29 pm
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I recall reading somewhere that he uses a G6 tuning, with the 6 on string 1.
DGDGBE aka Drop DG.
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Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 11 Oct 2024 7:03 am
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This coincides with what Mark Peotter in the link above says.
Mark is a musician and producer.
He scrutinized this tune and found that using a high D works out much better in this case, i.e. DGDGBD (open G), because it meets the demands for playing the intervals required.
He found that on the live version he avoids those chords and plays single tones, while the studio version may be dubbed.
I'll string one of my laps with that tuning and see.
Mark plays it on a standard guitar with a slide, but a lap will yield better results. Particularly on the upper registers and with vibratos.
The console steel you saw very likely was the Jedson, as shown on the Gilmourish site linked above.
On youtube they have some recent rehearsal videos where this guitar is used, although somebody else plays it.
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 11 Oct 2024 7:21 am
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Not to belabor this, but I can distinctly hear the E minor triad of the top three strings—in fact he plays harmonics on the first two strings, E and B. When they get to the bridge Cmaj7 chord is where he plays the top 3 strings.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 11 Oct 2024 8:35 am
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Hmm. Does this refer to what Allan says?
| Allan Revich wrote: |
...
DGDGBE aka Drop DG. |
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 11 Oct 2024 8:57 am
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| Helmut Gragger wrote: |
Hmm. Does this refer to what Allan says?
| Allan Revich wrote: |
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DGDGBE aka Drop DG. |
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I’m sorry, I didn’t read that, I was referring to your post.
It’s impossible to know what’s below the 3rd or maybe even 4th string because nothing is played there.
It seems similar to the experimentation of basically every guitar player who ever tried to play lap steel on their own without knowing what the standard steel tunings are. I know, I was one of them. I think the first session I ever played had a guitaristic tuning on it. In other words, it’s very effective for the song, but other than that I wouldn’t read too much into it.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 11 Oct 2024 10:13 am
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Yes I started this way too.
With this particular Pink Floyd track, I have a hard time to hear what he is playing.
I remember I have been transcribing comparably vastly more complicated Jerry Byrd tunes, but I only was able to do so because my ear was geared towards that tone and I could hear the timbre and all that
Gilmour uses a highly processed and inflated tone (just from a technical view) that makes it hard to hear for me. Gilmour's tone is very attractive, but not very natural any more. As I said earlier, I did not even assign it to a steel guitar initially. All attempts to map this to any of the tunings I have come across (through Jerry Byrd's course manual) have failed so far.
I will try the Open G version and see how I can re-map this.
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Joseph Lazo
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2024 1:31 pm
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| Helmet, what you said about the uniqueness of Gilmour's style is so true. It is nothing like what one expects a lap steel to sound, either in tone or style. I would categorize it as "ambient steel", well ahead of its time. Like you, I also had assumed much of the guitar parts in Pink Floyd's work was done on guitar. I was only dimly aware of lap steel in the '70s and '80s, and although I'd seen photos of Gilmour sitting at a console I somehow never put two and two together when listening to PF. |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 11 Oct 2024 8:43 pm
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You also had Steve Howe from Yes doing lap steel in a lot of the songs from that early 70's era
_________________
Duesenberg Fairytale
1949 Supro Supreme
1950 National New Yorker
2008 Highland Baritone Weissenborn
2020 Highland New Yorker.
2020 Highland Mohan Veena
2021 Highland Weissencone |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 12 Oct 2024 12:02 am
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There is only few musicians that can break an instrument free of all concepts, traditions and cliché's and make something new and unique out of it.
This is double hard, because a musician usually grows up imitating those icons, and then has to drop all that and strip free of all clichés.
A standard guitar obviously lends itself better to this for some reason than a steel guitar, particularly pedal steel.
I know Paul Franklin can do it. On The Notting Hillbillies record (Mark Knopfler) you hear him playing PS, and people do not recognize it as such, or attach it to Country playing. Very tasty.
I do like Country music occationally, but let's face it, the cliché has been beaten to death.
I do not know Steve Howe. The band "Yes" somehow did not gel with me. Floyd did.
And ambient... Those ambient guys always work with massive tones. Not necessarily distorted (which IMHO does not aid a steel btw.), but sustained by echoes of sorts. Yes I suppose this applies for Gilmour.
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 12 Oct 2024 8:37 am
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Great playing. And interesting technique...
I remember a famous jazz player saying something like "he was not crippled by the heritage of his predecessors"
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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John Larson
From:
Pennsyltucky, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2024 7:05 am
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| Helmut Gragger wrote: |
And ambient... Those ambient guys always work with massive tones. Not necessarily distorted (which IMHO does not aid a steel btw.), but sustained by echoes of sorts. Yes I suppose this applies for Gilmour. |
One of those effects is commonly referred to as "shimmer" or octave reverb it was essentially invented by Brian Eno and it consists of a digital reverb where the tails of the reverb has an octave component to them usually a higher but sometimes a lower one. Many companies make effects that do that sound now in stompboxes, it's long been available in rack gear. JHS makes a nice Octave Reverb pedal for a reasonable price and it sounds otherworldly on pedal steel. Here's Josh Scott explaining it a bit
Any way back to Gilmour, he's one of my 6 string heros imo the solos in "Comfortably Numb" are the best ever, no contest, especially the live version from Pulse.
He is a master at absolutely breathtakingly beautiful composition. The only other guitarists I'd put in that category are Buckethead and Eric Johnson. "Marooned" I believe this netted a very well deserved Grammy for instrumental track.
Awesome lap steel playing on the outro of this.
"High Hopes"
I believe in the Dark Side days he used a Fender pedal steel but did not use the pedals. He mostly plays Japanese copies of the classic Fender lap steel models nowadays.
Gilmour's great talent is his phrasing he's in the Derek Trucks, Duane Allman, and Carlos Santana camp when it comes to that talent absolute master.
| Jeff Highland wrote: |
| You also had Steve Howe from Yes doing lap steel in a lot of the songs from that early 70's era |
There are some really nice steel guitar moments throughout their Tales From Topographic Oceans, and Relayer records as well as Howe's first two solo albums. He approaches the instrument much like a an orchestral string instrument. Here's a good example Steve Howe - Bachianas Brasileiras No.5 (Aria)
I love the prog rock era before it became a parody of itself and formulaic as there were no rules to what instruments could find their way in, there would probably be more steel if it wasn't a predominantly British musical style at the time.
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Rejoice in the Lord, O ye righteous; praise is meet for the upright. Give praise to the Lord with the harp, chant unto Him with the ten-stringed psaltery. Sing unto Him a new song, chant well unto Him with jubilation. For the word of the Lord is true, and all His works are in faithfulness. The Lord loveth mercy and judgement; the earth is full of the mercy of the Lord.
- Psalm 33:1-5 |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 14 Oct 2024 2:16 am
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| John Larson wrote: |
One of those effects is commonly referred to as "shimmer" or octave reverb |
I never payed attention to that. I thought it was just a marketing term. The units are inexpensive, suppose I get one.
Ironically, if there are two transistors in a circuit (like in a fuzz face) the box is expensive, if there are 5 million transistors in it (like in a digital reverb), its cheap. So much for logic.
| John Larson wrote: |
Any way back to Gilmour, he's one of my 6 string heros(...) The only other guitarists I'd put in that category are Buckethead and Eric Johnson. |
I agree. I also like Buckethead, although it is not exactly my style.
| John Larson wrote: |
I believe in the Dark Side days he used a Fender pedal steel |
Yes I swear I can hear the Fender-y tone.
| John Larson wrote: |
there would probably be more steel if it wasn't a predominantly British musical style at the time |
My father, although not a musician, used to listen to Speedy West and Hawaiian Music, when it was aired in the mid sixties on the radio. I guess I was infected as a child by this.
Europe was flooded with GI's after the war an they wanted to hear "their" music. Bands that were adopting the new instrument were sprouting like mushrooms.
After their demise, this was ebbing out, but I guess several instruments have popped up now and then.
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Joachim Kettner
From:
Germany
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Posted 15 Oct 2024 6:41 am
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British band Unicorn recorded this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVbfqpoN7_o
Dave Gilmour produced it and was credited with playing a Fender Pedal Steel.
There's another track with him, but it's not on Youtube.
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Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 15 Oct 2024 10:01 am
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Nice music. Thats Gilmour playing pedal steel? I am not aware that he was acquainted with pushing pedals.
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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John Larson
From:
Pennsyltucky, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2024 8:52 am
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| Helmut Gragger wrote: |
My father, although not a musician, used to listen to Speedy West and Hawaiian Music, when it was aired in the mid sixties on the radio. I guess I was infected as a child by this.
Europe was flooded with GI's after the war an they wanted to hear "their" music. Bands that were adopting the new instrument were sprouting like mushrooms.
After their demise, this was ebbing out, but I guess several instruments have popped up now and then. |
There's definitely a big influence if you listen to someone like Mark Knopfler from Dire Straits there's pedal steel esque ideas all over his lead guitar playing. Things like the volume pedal usage in "Brothers in Arms" or the steel like bends on "Sultans of Swing" or "Telegraph Road."
_________________
Rejoice in the Lord, O ye righteous; praise is meet for the upright. Give praise to the Lord with the harp, chant unto Him with the ten-stringed psaltery. Sing unto Him a new song, chant well unto Him with jubilation. For the word of the Lord is true, and all His works are in faithfulness. The Lord loveth mercy and judgement; the earth is full of the mercy of the Lord.
- Psalm 33:1-5 |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 16 Oct 2024 10:58 am
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There is some musicians, whose technique is not easily copied by a "tribute" band.
One of them is Knopfler. One is David Byrne. One is David Tronzo (nobody knows what he does, but it is very musical ...)
Knopfler does his thing essentially without any big distortion. Remarkable.
I like good distortion for guitar. And then it bamboozles me to hear that somebody like Gilmour uses ultra clean amps.
So did Lynyrd Skynyrd btw - and this was rock pure. No tube tone rigmarole 
I dislike distortion with steel guitar in general and with bass.
Paul (Franklin) played some steel parts on Knopfler recordings, and people would not recognize the instrument.
Hats off!
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 17 Oct 2024 4:02 am
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| David M Brown wrote: |
Perhaps you should give Howe's work with 70's Yes another listen...he played some beautiful steel parts.
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I bought my first steel guitar (a Morrell student cheapo) as a college student in 2000 because of Howe's playing during the "Soon" portion of Gates of Delirium on the Relayer album. I 100% grant you, Yes is not for everyone but that was the gateway drug for me. It was over a decade later that I started discovering Hawaiian music and ended up here!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfvJonakVNo
I remember as a pretentious college kid my mom hearing me play it on piano and thinking I was playing Memories by Barbara Streisand and that REALLY bothered me at the time LOL
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Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2024 7:58 am
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| Nic Neufeld wrote: |
| David M Brown wrote: |
Perhaps you should give Howe's work with 70's Yes another listen...he played some beautiful steel parts.
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I bought my first steel guitar (a Morrell student cheapo) as a college student in 2000 because of Howe's playing during the "Soon" portion of Gates of Delirium on the Relayer album. I 100% grant you, Yes is not for everyone but that was the gateway drug for me. It was over a decade later that I started discovering Hawaiian music and ended up here!
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Thanks.
In the 70's I certainly listened to a lot of Yes, including all the pieces on which Howe played steel.
I also had gotten my first lap steel, A National Waikiki model (which I still have!) around that time in the early 70's, and used an old A low bass method book to learn. Later I used Filiberto's E7 tuning method, and then got into A6, C6, etc.
Here's a me playing steel with a rock band circa 1976:
Sometimes I used open G low bass...sometimes normal guitar tuning.
I also listened to Pink Floyd and enjoyed the steel parts on their recordings; another rocker I liked on steel was Lindley.[/img] |
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