A Copedent to maximize 3-voice movements (Counterpoint)

Lola Saura Jimeno · Posted 2 Oct 2024 4:42 am

Hello everyone,

I've been exploring the E9 neck and its true that it has a lot of material that facilitates contrary and independent movements, but I feel that when it comes to 3 voices, the E9 copedent can be somewhat limited. For two voices, I find plenty of possibilities, but for 3 voices, especially in chords with more widely spaced voices (such as open triads, drops, etc.) or with notes that start and end in unison, the standard setup seems to have certain restrictions.

Pedals and levers seem to be designed primarily for specific interval changes, but when I try to achieve diatonic, independent 3-voice movements, sometimes the available combinations don't offer the necessary flexibility. For example, one pedal or lever might affect a string in a way that prevents a different or contrary movement on another string within the same chord.

Has anyone worked on or is aware of a copedent specifically designed to maximize independent movements in 3-voice chords? I would love to know if there is any setup that allows better control over voices in a more flexible way.

Some of the limitations I see are:

Levers that affect the same note in the same way: For example, if I have two E notes (one low and one high) in the same chord, the lever affects both identically, lowering both to D#. To facilitate contrary motion, I think it would be ideal for the same lever to affect them differently, such as lowering the low E to D# and raising the high E to F#, or vice versa. This would allow more independence between the voices, though it could limit the higher registers.

Limitations in the range of movements: Many strings only have the option to raise or lower (with some exceptions), but not both, which limits the potential for more complex 3-voice movements. I also don't see standard copedents offering raises of 3 semitones. For example, I think it would be very useful to have an F# string that could lower to E and also raise to G# or A. This would provide more options for building chords with the bar in the same position.

I know the E9 neck has been extensively studied and offers infinite possibilities; there may be things I'm overlooking.

However, I am facing this issue and believe that one of the pedal steel's most special features is its ability to generate independent 3-voice movements from a single bar position using pedals and levers. This characteristic makes it unique, and I absolutely love it. I’d really like to enhance this aspect.

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm simply looking for ways to improve upon what was originally designed for probably good reasons. I would greatly appreciate any advice, copedent suggestions, or ideas that could help overcome these limitations. Thanks in advance!

Jared Ruari · From: Oregon, USA

So with any setup there's going to be limitations when it comes to what chord voicings are available. But here are some ideas I've found helpful as I arrange music for steel guitar that wasn't written for steel guitar:

-take it one chord or musical concept at a time

-don't necessarily expect to find the next chord at the same fret or on the same string grips

-learn to think systematically about what intervals make up a chord and how it might be formed on your setup

-you might have to use a slightly different voicing or leave out some notes

-get creative: use open strings paired with notes "fretted" higher up the neck, be willing to think of any given string as the root note (for example the "dominant 7th" or "major 2nd" in the E9 tuning

Check out Susan Alcorn's playing. (My steel hero!) She has arranged some quite intricate choral music for steel, and is in my opinion the gold standard when it comes to arranging music for steel that wasn't written for steel. She plays a beefed up C6 tuning, with elements of a 9th/chromatic tuning. Universal or hybrid tunings seem to be best for maximizing harmonic capabilities. I use a 7x5 D13th copedent and find that there are very few limitations that can't be worked around with enough effort.

I hope this is helpful!

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Terry Bethel used a lot of counterpoint and moving harmonies.
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Lola Saura Jimeno · Posted 3 Oct 2024 1:57 am

Thank you for the responses. I know that any changes to the tuning will inevitably mean sacrificing certain things, but it surprises me that a copedent specifically designed to enhance diatonic 3-voice movements hasn't been more widely developed. I always think in terms of intervals and try to visualize triads moving from one to another. But when I explore the movement possibilities (including across different frets), I encounter those limitations. It would be great to be able to move the same note in two different octaves in contrary motion or to bring notes to unison using different pedals.

Even with these limitations, there have been musicians like Emmons who managed to maximize this texture of independent 3-voice movements in some of their performances, like Danny Boy or Shenandoah.

Still, I believe that this aspect of the instrument could be further enhanced with the right configuration. I'm not enough of a theorist to develop a copedent that achieves this.

However, I'd love to hear the opinions of other users on this topic. Do you think these limitations exist as I see them, or do you think I might be mistaken? Any thoughts or feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

The only limitation I find with the 10string E9 is its range from the low B string to the high G# since it kinda only allows for two of the 3 open voiced triads inversions at the same fret. (Thats why I also have a 12extE9 guitar to get access to more of those open voiced triad inversions)

Contrary moving lines needs to use both pedals/levers and bar movement to find the right solution for letting the melodies flow. Learning to keep the same note on one of the strings while at the same time pressing/releasing a pedal/lever that affect the same string up/down is key to acheive certian melody moving lines.

If you want a whole tone drop one one string but dont have that change then you may have to use whole tone raise on one the other strings while moving the bar in order to produce the desired drop on the string you want.

Would love some examples of which triad movements you struggle to find as I think there is a solution, as long as it is withing the range of the guitar.

In certain situations playing the middle note of a closed triad as a harmonic(sounds one octave above) is one way to cheat a closed triad into an open voiced triad.

B.Erlandsen
Remington S10LG 3+4
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

Fred · From: Amesbury, MA

I'm by no means an expert in this but I think a good place to start would be the standard Emmons C6 with five pedals and four knees.

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

You might have a bit more luck with a 12 string steel.
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Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
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Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

The basic issue with your entire concept is that you are looking at the steel neck and the lever/pedal set up like a slide rule. This is not the case. All the functions of the pedals and levers already have multiple harmonic functions based on intervalic relationships which shift depending on which string you are starting on. If you had a pedal steel and played it you would find that the basic limitation of the E9 tuning is with the ability of the player. It is not a math problem.

Every instrument has its physical limitations. To try and play full triads with perfect contrapuntal step wise motion will be very difficult on any pedalsteel set up. One way I increase my intervalic options is to simply remove the parallel motion. My 5th string half step lower does not affect the 10th string. Or look at Lloyd Green only moving the 8th string lower and not the 4th string.

I find that playing full triads at all times is not particularly musically functional on more basic levels than the ability to find the notes. There are expressive phrasing issues along with timbre and pitch.
If you are playing with other musicians the issues become much more complex. You make musical choices. Like when a classical harp player is presented with a piece written by a piano player or a classical guitar player transcribes Bach.

I have found in my own playing and by watching other players develop that the real issues with playing the steel are with timbre, intonation and phrasing. If you put the hours in to get that stuff right finding the notes becomes more easy. Look at Paul Franklin's intevalic studies or try and figure out what John Hughey and Hal Rugg are doing with major and minor 2nds. Listen closely to Lloyd Green on how and why he will play the same pitch on different strings in a single phrase.

I would like to hear the music that you want to play on the steel along with examples of your own playing if you do play yourself already.

I would also look into the archives for Ed Packard and his perfect 14string tuning. He had the slide rule mathmatical approach fully fleshed out. He only understood that it had very little to do with playing music on the steel later in life.

Bob Lee had an ingenios diatonic tuning system that might be worth a look also.
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Bob

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Buddy’s arrangement for Shenandoah is mostly 2 voice counterpoint with a third added in here or there, often as he resolves chords. He includes LOTS of movement up and down the neck for Parallel motion. This is a very common steel technique, giving the harmonized thirds sound that the pedal steel is known for. So parallel motion is kind of built into the pedal steel.

I don’t believe there are any extended or wide interval contrary motion portions in that arrangement. For contrary motion (and for pedal point) you are somewhat limited by the extent to which the pedals and knees modify the intervals if you want the voices to ring out continuously. But with clever use of the volume pedal you can still make it pretty smooth.

I think you will find that working on 2 line counterpoint and implication of a third continuous voice will be possible in many instances. And it doesn’t have to be continuous anyway. Even singers take a breath occasionally.

I would be careful about designing a whole copedent around the idea. There is a lot of work done in counterpoint on both necks by Bernie Watruba Jr here on the forum. He will mail you copies of his work. I’d at least go through that before starting a new copedent. The standard copedents exist and persist for many reasons.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

I play 3-note moving harmonies all the time on my E9 using the standard Emmons copedant, and fifty years in I can't imagine a more comprehensive system than that worked out by the master. Yes there are combinations easier found on C6 but also many only available on E9. I recommend further study of the original system before hacking into it and losing valuable stuff you don't even know about yet. However if your mind is made up don't let my humble opinion interfere.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Lola Saura Jimeno · Posted 7 Oct 2024 11:12 am

Thank you all very much for your responses and for taking the time to share your experience and knowledge! It has been very helpful to read each of your perspectives, and I’ve been studying them over the past few days.

As a way of giving back, I’ve made a donation to the forum to support this valuable source of knowledge that you all create by sharing your insights.

I will respond individually to each of you, but I first wanted to express my gratitude to everyone for your contributions. I truly appreciate the support and the ideas you've shared.

Thanks again!

Lola Saura Jimeno · Posted 7 Oct 2024 11:14 am

Lola Saura Jimeno · Posted 7 Oct 2024 11:16 am

Lola Saura Jimeno · Posted 7 Oct 2024 11:18 am

Lola Saura Jimeno · Posted 7 Oct 2024 11:39 am

Lola Saura Jimeno · Posted 7 Oct 2024 11:44 am

Lola Saura Jimeno · Posted 7 Oct 2024 11:47 am

Lola Saura Jimeno

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I had a B-1/2 step lower change on 10 and 5. I took it off of 10 because I wanted a maj7 interval when in “B6” mode. As a bonus, it also adds a maj7 to the Bm chord voicing at strings 10-9–7-5. That and the Franklin change on strings 5 & 6 are the only non-parallel changes I have on my Extended E9, but neither of them are regarded as “standard” changes.

I may talk a big game on this forum, but trust me Lola, I am not a rock star of a pedal steel player. There are many far better and far more knowledgeable players here whose insightful posts and YouTube videos have helped and inspired me, and they are much more worthy of your attention.

I will always remember something I read here that I think is attributed to Lloyd Green - when you finally figure out how to play a phrase you’ve been working on, find two other ways to play it on your pedal steel. I’m not sure that applies to EVERY lick he has ever played, but there is certainly a great deal of truth in that comment.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Hi Lola thank you for your response. The E9 already includes lots of parallel motion built in by moving the bar, as we discussed. This can be pushed up to 3 voices and higher by recognizing that chords on on the same sets of strings can be connected continuously. Then the more familiar you are with all the chords up and down the neck on a set of strings, the more parallel motion multiple voice options you have.

Contrary motion is much more limited, and will require more practice and thought, especially where the desired counterpoint proceeds through wider intervals than the pedals and levers will allow by themselves. This means changing string sets is required. You cannot completely mask the sound of new attacks, but in many instances new attacks occur with chord changes or the end or beginning of phrases, so it happens that you can mask attacks more than one might expect. Also, you can try to find a way to play contrary motions where one of the voices is still continuous, keeping the volume pedal control focused on that. The other line having a different texture (with attacks) can then be pretty nice.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Sam Weisenberg · From: Philadelphia

If, through your explorations, you do not find what you're looking for with pedal steel, and you are interested in synthesis, definitely explore what you can do with an MPE-compatible synthesizer controlled by a Linnstrument or Roli Seaboard. Multiple, independent, smoothly flowing voices are now possible in that world, with controllers that are satisfying to play.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

You may wish to post your current copedent to see where it can be improved.

Some of the larger ranges of movement occurs on s5 with the X lever in conjunction with the A pedal (4 semitones) , and s6, with the whole tone lower in conjunction with the B pedal (4 semitones). I used to have a lever that raised s6 a whole tone for 5 semitones, and the PF pedal gets s5 to a 5 semitone range. Ive read of a few guys (maybe it was PF) who are putting a 3 semitone raise on s5. For 6 semitones of movement.

There have indeed been copeds published for decades, if not a half century that E and F lever do a raise / lower and a lower / raise on s4/s8 just as you envision. So, yes, it has been done, and probably for the same reason, and I bet it's great in context. Most every unique take on a coped adds something with one hand (and takes awY with the other Wink

). I consideredauditioning that change once, but never got to it. You ought to. The pedal steel is a machine that can be configured anyway you please. 12 string Universal players are typically the least wedded to traditional templates, and there are alot of exampkes of departure.

I've considered doing basic counterpoint etudes on pedal steel (as a passing thought) before, but find its hard enough just to keep my head straight on the 246,000 ways to do other things

I will say that when I attended the Phoenix Steel show many years ago, some of the players seemed to reallyhone in one voice movement within the chords, and it was pretty amazing technique.

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

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